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  • Tips on T.F. design and tactics

    There seems to be a lot of uncertainty about ship design, what to put in T.F.s, and basic tactics.

    IMHO MOO3 does a pretty decent job of modeling surface naval tactics, with that in mind it's not that difficult to predict what will do well and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that this theory is indeed accurate. Listed below are a few general points taken from modern surface naval tactics.

    1. Three things are key, detection, range and damage. Always. True in modern naval combat dispersion is also a key concept but this is because of nukes not conventional weapons and there is no nuke equivalent present in MOO3’s tactical combat simulator.
    2. Concentration of fire is an important point to remember in all types of combat, it is better to destroy one T.F. than to wound 10 T.F.s.
    3. Missiles and Fighters are superior to beam weapons in that they have longer range and do more damage if fire is sufficiently concentrated to over-saturate point defense. This is not terribly difficult to do, especially since missiles and fighters are “smart” and will search for another target if their first target is already destroyed. Further more missiles and fighter sear for addition targets in a rational manner i.e. they go for the closest next T.F.
    4. Cloaking is generally not a good idea. ECM takes up twice as much space as ECCM and in general detection arrays seem to combat cloaking arrays pretty well. Also cloaking is based on ship size so for well-cloaked ships you need smaller ships, which of course carry fewer weapons, and have less “armor.” So big picket ships with a moderate amount of ECCM and detection gear have more seeing power than the small stealthy ships will have stealthy power, AND the detection oriented T.F. will probably has more hull space devoted to weapons, greater damage potential, more armor and a good chance of detecting an equally well tech’d cloaking T.F. Meaning of course the cloaking T.F. gets eaten. MOO3 does not simulate sub’s well, or for that matter even at all.
    5. Point defense is important, every ship should have some. Generally speaking it is better to have a give hull space of auto-fire medium damage (or much lower hull space low damage) PD weapons than it is to have a few high damage PD weapons. This helps prevent over-saturation of PD in 1 on 1 (T.F.) situation and helps damage control in 10 on 10 (T.F.).
    6. In the same way that concentration of firepower is important so is concentration of forces, this allows multiple PD ships from multiple T.F.s to all shoot at the same salvo of missiles helping them to survive.
    7. Missiles are not superior to fighters and fighters are not superior to missiles. Fighters are very good at saturating PD weapons. Missiles are very good at doing damage. They work best together. Experiment with Carrier T.F.s that include a few missile boats, but remember general point # 5.
    8. Interceptors (IC) are far superior to Space Superiority Fighters (SSF). IC’s do 1/3 less damage and take up ½ the space of the same weapon type of SSF. Giving you more damage per unit of hull space. (10x2 > 5x3).
    9. Missiles chassis past light missile are a little absurd, it is far better to have 10 missiles that each do 100 damage than it is to have one that does 1000. See general point #3 (saturation of PD).
    10. Concentration of fire is important, in a perfect world 2 Carrier/I.F. T.F.s should fire at the same target, but because of the nature of the tactical combat and because the missiles and fighters are relatively smart all T.F.s firing at one is not really a problem. This helps achieve the aim of general point #3. (and is basically the same thing written again, but it is important enough to list twice).

  • #2
    Some VERY good points made here.

    Studied Mahon?

    I agree with the utility of carriers and missile ships over beam weapons, ESPECIALLY in the early game when fleets are small and beam ranges are pathetically short. My quibble is that I've noticed that there are times late in the game (as with MoO and MoO2) where missiles decrease in relative effectiveness because it becomes hellishly difficult to over-saturate the point defenses of an enemy when they have so many beam weapons. Meanwhile, the greatly increased range of the better long-range beam weapons removes the problem beam weapons can create with concentration of fire. The only remaining problem then is DETECTION, which you should be doing something about regardless of the other elements of your tactical doctrine.

    My impression thusfar is that fighters become much more effective than missiles in the late game, but that long-range beam weapons increase enough in value against both missiles and fighters that it seems worth switching largely to long-range beam ships at some point (as with MoO and MoO2).
    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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    • #3
      I'd go with most of that, but cloaking/ecm can allow a big carrier TF to start a planetary assault outside the planet detection radius. This helps eliminate the PD bug that can wipe half your TF when the first missile salvo rips into your ships.

      Ship for ship I tend to get better results out of IF and CV forces than LR beams. I use beamers mainly as bombardment platforms. Fighters just can't damage planets easily.
      To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
      H.Poincaré

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      • #4
        Unlike MOO 1 and 2, in the end game missiles still do far more damage than beam weapons for a damage/space ratio.

        Example.

        Megabolt Ultra-heavy Spinal Mount x1 (with Improved Damage, Min 1+2) 340 units of space, 7100 damage, range 36k.

        Disintegration Beam Ultra-heavy Spinal Mount x3 (with Auto-fire, Min 1+2) 360 units of space, 1575 damage, range 54k.

        Omega warhead Rocket Chasse, 4 missiles in 5 salvo’s (for arguments sake should really be 6 missiles in 3 or 10 missiles in 2) 14k damage 400 space (or more realisticly21k and 35 k respectively). (Each rocket does 3600 damage and takes up 17 space).

        Omega warhead Light missile Chasse, 3 missiles in 5 salvos (should be 5 in 3 or 7 in 2) does 21k damage for 400 space (once again should be 36k/ 50k). Each missile does 7200 damage and takes up 21.21 units of space.

        Of course you cannot shoot down beam weapons.

        Of course missiles never miss.

        I find fighters to still be useful in the end game, not only for PD saturation, but they do nice damage.

        Disruptor Fighter Interceptor 48 space 105 damage and pretty green lights.

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        • #5
          Oh yah, and you are absolutely right about a little bit of cloaking ecm for planetary assult, especially in the middle and end game where your ships are big enough to put a couple of levels on and not take a drastic space penalty.

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          • #6
            A question, then:

            Two equal size (same available space) ships at equivalent technology levels.

            Ship one with missiles, basically 'maxed' out for IF.

            What percent of Ship two's hull space will be required to eliminate the missiles (98% chance or so)?

            >100%, missile ships are the only way to go.

            ~100% it is a trade off.

            <100%, the non-missile ship becomes more effective.

            OF course, this is looking at the ships in a 'vacuum' (hehe..we are in space), not as part of a fleet, but I think human vs. human may come up with some interesting fleet designs......

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            • #7
              A stupid question

              Thanks for the tips. I have been letting the computer fight my battles for me so I just watch and may not get as good a sense of what is going on.

              I had been wondering whether ECM protected the ship with the ECM or the entire task force. From what I read here a ship with ECM contributes to the protection of the whole task force. Correct? Do more ships with ECM result in better ECM? Does someone who has better ECCM completely negate your ECM or is it still somewhat effective?

              If this is true are there any other advantages of putting recon ships in the task force? Should I put more then the minimum required by the task force size?

              The benefits of point defense are very visibly tangible. The benefits of picket ships less so.

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              • #8
                Trainwreck 20,

                Some important points,
                1. It is, except in the very early game where it is extremely unpractical, a bad idea to 100 specialize your ships and your T.F.s. Just like in real life, even modern nuclear carriers have PHALANX, CWISS (PD) systems. I find 10% PD on everything, once you get to light cruisers a really good idea. Also I have found that Picket ships make good Jeeps. A little PD, a few PD missiles (old tech) a few small interceptors (the really really small ones) and you have done leaps and bounds to help your self achieve the all important, all consuming goal of achieving PD saturation.
                2. I.F. is pretty worthless if you do not achieve PD saturation. The way that is most effective in doing this, IMHO, is
                A. Use Interceptors, they live longer than missiles and keep the PD saturated so missiles don’t get shot down, also they provide two different and neat types of PD themselves, they can shoot missiles down and they can also be shot by missiles. You could think of it this way, interceptors are like a net you throw on your enemy to distract them; missiles are the trident you use to skewer them once distracted. (Feel the power of my roman gladiator ness)
                B. On your non-I.F. ships put 3 or 4 small PD missiles with tiny warheads, this also helps you achieve PD Saturation. If you shoot 50 nuke PD missiles and 10 X-ray laser light missiles, it presents more targets, which helps to achieve the all-important factor of PD saturation.
                3. Also early detection is key, whatever type of weapon you use. If your enemy can shoot you and you cannot even see him you are up a creek without a paddle.
                4. If used correctly and proper application of concentrated force is achieved, 100% PD will not save you from a missile salvo. Fighters and PD Missiles will saturate, or partially saturate PD, and the big missiles or some of the big missiles will get through and there is not a ship in the game that can take 7k damage and like it. Let alone a T.F. that can take the 50k –100k damage that one Large I.F. SHIP can dish out and still have room for PD, ECM, detection gear and nice fat shields.


                Right now, just exactly like in modern naval warfare, T.F. density number and logistics (the all important science of warfare, tactics is for amateurs, Experts study logistics) should determine the out come. The fluff in the manual about T.F. composition being thinking mans game is just like all the other fluff, all fluffy.

                Drsparnum

                I have no clue to determine if ECM, or ECCM on one ship affects the whole fleet, or how ships of differing sizes within a T.F. effect detection and cloaking. I don’t trust the manual or the tech descriptions or the strategy guide because they are all often misleading, maybe one of the awe-inspiring developers could tell us how this works? Anybody got an inside line?
                Seruko

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                • #9
                  I find it hard to believe that autobuild would put 14 ECCM units on a recon ship if ECM levels did not stack. No enemy ship is ever going to have 4+ ECM units and anything bigger than a peashooter to fire with.

                  That said, cloaking doesn't do what it says on the tin. Cloak and ECM will be easily penetrated by the enemy. If they have 3 small ships to your 18 battlewagons then chances are they will see you at bigger range than you see them because of the size factor, especially if they have a planet, even if you're cloaked and jamming away. Perhaps wisely the game designers won't let you launch fighters and missiles from massive range at planetary defences unless you've got superb cloaking and a dash of luck. Defence would be too hard then.
                  To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
                  H.Poincaré

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The question is not wether or not ECCM or ECM stacks (although maybe it should be) the question is what is (are) the underlying mechanics of cloaking, is ship size more important than say ECM and how much either way? Do more cloaking units make you more cloaked? Do more detection units make you more able to detect enemy ships? Why is ECCM half the size of ECM, are they equally effective per unit of size/tech? Does ECM help just this ship it is on or all of the ships in the T.F. and if it does, is the cloaking power shared (1 ECM = 1 level for all ships) or divided ( 10 ECM 10 Ships = 1 ECM level)? Why is there no Submarine equivlent? In modern navies Subs are the main threat to carriers, well subs, other carriers and nukes.

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                    • #11
                      I guess ECCM modules on recon ships have to affect the task force as a whole. Otherwise the recon ships would be useless (lacking missles) and the missle ships would get ECCM when you autobuilt them (which I don't think they do).

                      I suppose it also makes sense that they stack, and it isn't a situation where the best one is the one that counts.

                      What else do recon ships do though? Do they do anything for you when you are attacked by beam weapons? Carriers?

                      I know almost nothing about stealth yet either - that is military tactics 201 and I am still in the 101 class.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tips on T.F. design and tactics

                        Originally posted by seruko
                        9. Missiles chassis past light missile are a little absurd, it is far better to have 10 missiles that each do 100 damage than it is to have one that does 1000. See general point #3 (saturation of PD).
                        The autobuild seems to like to do a number of small missiles plus one big one. I presume the idea is that while the PD is busy shooting down the small ones, the big one will sneak through. I've not done any comparitive tests to see how it works (nor could I, really, until the PD bug gets fixed).

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                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Tips on T.F. design and tactics

                          Originally posted by Craig P.


                          The autobuild seems to like to do a number of small missiles plus one big one. I presume the idea is that while the PD is busy shooting down the small ones, the big one will sneak through. I've not done any comparitive tests to see how it works (nor could I, really, until the PD bug gets fixed).
                          I always use some of the best Missiles along with the best Chassis available in Combination with a Couple of Nuclear Point Defense-Missiles.

                          For example 4 heavy Scatterpacks along with maybe 10-15 Nuclear Missiles.

                          And of Course all of my Missiles are armored and shielded

                          A nice sideeffect (aside from those Nuclear PD-Missiles getting used as Bait for the Point Defense) is, that they also seem to go on their own after enemy Missiles and Fighter. If they encounter some of those during their way to the Target (for example an enemy Planet) they turn and atack the enemy Missiles/Fighters instead.
                          After implementing this Tactic (using some big misslies along with Nuclear PD-Missiles) I never had to worry about enemy Missiles homing on my Taskforces anymore.
                          They usually get destroyed long before they are able to reach my Ships

                          (I now also use those Nukes on my PD-Escorts along with Beam-PD-Weapons)
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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