New Avault review

[booje]

Nobody has still posted where Tom Chick actually won one or more games simply by hitting the next turn button and doing nothing.

I tried that with 'Hearts of Iron' last night out of curiosity. Strangely, a whole lot of nothing happened. Didn't win/ didn't lose. Just other nations moving their stuff all around me. Hmmm....

[sfsuphysics]

I really didn't find the Avault review to be that bad. I mean the graphics ARE subpar for today's standards, there is a ton of information in it, there is an incredibly steep learning curve (although dont recall now if the AV people mention it) but what this review doesn't state is that its the type of game that 4x space explorer fans (ie Moo2 fans) would like. Its not made for those who buy top of the line rigs and play FPS type games, trying to squeeze the last few frames per sec that they can out of their vid card, its not for those who want to rush with tanks over fantasy battle fields, its not for those who think that paying bills and simulating the stress accompanied with work is fun (no offense sims fans), its not for those who want to build a city and watch it run, or a zoo, or a rollercoaster. Its for those who want to start off as a little fish in a big pond and conquer the whole bloody galaxy! To relive some of those feelings when you first saw star wars with massive fleets engaging. To either eradicate everyone who doesn't look like you or unite all races under a unified banner. Its fans of this genre, I mean I hate FPS games with a passion that probably rivials the first moohate review, that doesn't mean I go around saying "ooh this game got a 9 out of 10? how did that happen!" I figure, hey I dont like those games anyways, the reviewer probably does.

So with that in mind I look to reviews like at Orion Sector which was done by those who enjoy this type of game, and can look past its faults, and tell me from another fan of this type of game that its good. Some of those actual BIG (read well known) review sites that have more than 1 person who reviews games because they realize people's tastes differ and unbiased opinions are EXTREMELY difficult to come by due to the human condition, where the admit their are some flaws, and its a bit difficult to get started but once you figure things out.... Look out, you'll want to do nothing but play this game. Now back to avault (wow what a rant eh?) they said it was an average game in the aspects of all those fields, and probably is to the average gamer an average game, but this isn't about the average gamer, this is about a gamer with some creativity, some imagination, some sense of doing something more than just shooting everything in sight *grin*, this is about Moofanatics.

Thank you for your time, I have one long day ahead of me before Moo3 will be mine, in one way or another!

[leiavoia]

I would just like to pop in and say that, while i am not defending JonahFalcon, he is right about pointing out some errors in the review:

FACT: the AI does not colonize worlds unless you specifically tell it it can.

FACT: you can turn off the viceroy, and it will not override your suggestions unless it is in dire straights (blockaded and starving to death - in which case it would start to farm) UNLESS you have a specific development plan for that.

Also: There are *2* levels of AI: the UberAI (the overall empire leaders) and the planetary AI (viceroys). I think people are getting these two things mixed up. From what i am hearing, the UberAI is what could use the help. The planetary AI is pretty darn good when you talk to the people who know the game best. It would appear that many of the reviewers "don't get it" with the viceroy business.

for instance: the Avault reviewer said that he wanted all mining on one planet but could not stop it from farming. This is probably because the planet was blockaded, and when that happens you get only the food you grow locally, no imports, no exports. Now on a 100% mining colony that is blockaded (thus starving to death), the Viceroy will gladly step in and say "Screw mining, we're dying out here!" and start building some farming infrastructure. It isn't stupid.

Also, the reviewer may not have thuroughly understood development plans. Many plans overlap. There can be plans for, say, Frontier colonies and Mineral Rich colonies. Well, what if you have a colony that is both? Then they both get factored in, or possibly even more.

Technology: it is true that if you just leave it there, the viceroys will "make recommendations" as to what to research and very slowly over time you will notice that the sliders will change. This is a good thing IMHO, because they probably know more than i do. Now if i don't like, i can lock each funding sector in place so that it cannot be changed by anything. I can also turn off the planetary AI per-colony if i don't want him messing around in there.

So i don't think that the Avault review is bad or wrong. There are several legitimate complaints one could make about MOO3. However, like i've said earlier, there are some blatant errors in the review, so take it with a big grain of salt and just go buy the game yourself - then decide if it's good or not.
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[sfsuphysics]

[SIZE=1]
for instance: the Avault reviewer said that he wanted all mining on one planet but could not stop it from farming. This is probably because the planet was blockaded

The reviewer also mentioned something about a fleet of enemy ships going to a planet and then not doing anything. I suspect that the game mechanics have evolved to the point that "bombing a planets population into dust" is not exactly a well liked thing, and it most likely was a blockade, waiting for troop transports, or seeing that your planetary defenses were tougher than the fleet. I hope this is the case, since that was a major gripe about Moo2, was that it was too easy to genocide a planet and move a colony over, rather than build troops and take it over.

[leiavoia]

Originally posted by sfsuphysics


The reviewer also mentioned something about a fleet of enemy ships going to a planet and then not doing anything. I suspect that the game mechanics have evolved to the point that "bombing a planets population into dust" is not exactly a well liked thing, and it most likely was a blockade, waiting for troop transports, or seeing that your planetary defenses were tougher than the fleet. I hope this is the case, since that was a major gripe about Moo2, was that it was too easy to genocide a planet and move a colony over, rather than build troops and take it over.

yes you are right, i forgot to point that out too.

The reason "they didn't do anything" could be one of two (stupid AI is not an option in this case):

1) Enemy found out once it got to the system that it's fleet was inadaquate to match the system defenses and decided not to attack - awaiting reinforcements

2) Enemy is blockading the planet on purpose. In fact, if there is anything that the Enemy AI's do well, it's blockade planets! It doesn't take much: just one ship and you've got all food, minerals, population, and goods severed off from the outside worlds, and the colony, unless it has sufficient resources on it's own (unlikely for a border world), will starve to death and eventually you will lose the colony entirely. I've had that happen before.

Now imagine what happens when the AI starts parking cruisers on all your border worlds, just quietly starving everyone to death, forcing you to divide your mega fleet to dispatch the blockaders.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by leiavoia


for instance: the Avault reviewer said that he wanted all mining on one planet but could not stop it from farming. This is probably because the planet was blockaded, and when that happens you get only the food you grow locally, no imports, no exports. Now on a 100% mining colony that is blockaded (thus starving to death), the Viceroy will gladly step in and say "Screw mining, we're dying out here!" and start building some farming infrastructure. It isn't stupid.

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Just wondering why the player wouldn't realize that he is being blockaded, and that's the reason for the viceroy overriding his orders....

Maybe he was expressing, in a somewhat unknowing way, that the game does many things that contradict the players' orders and doesn't let the player be obviously aware of the reasons why. So in that respect, the game fails.

If a planet is blockaded, is it so subtle that you don't realize it?

I would guess that that info should be in your face somehow.

just asking, because that seems bad, or was the reviewer just too stupid to see the signs of a blockade?

just asking, just asking.

i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just asking!

don't jump down my throat here!

[leiavoia]

Originally posted by vee4473
Maybe he was expressing, in a somewhat unknowing way, that the game does many things that contradict the players' orders and doesn't let the player be obviously aware of the reasons why. So in that respect, the game fails.

Bingo.

In MOO2, there was a huge bold red text at the top of the planet screen that said:
BLOCKADED

it's not quite so obvious anymore. that's one thing i'd pull for in a patch.

[vee4473]

that's interesting.

but is much of moo3 a game that does things and lets the player out in the cold to figure out why?

and before the player does, he gets so annoyed that it feels like the game is just messing with your mind?

[Master Marcus]

curious... after reading bad reviews related threads, I'm even MORE attracted to MoO3 than before ...I like complex simulation games, and I like so far the way BTs respond to the various flaming comments. Anyway, I'll micromanage my entire military and I would have even with a PERFECT AI, so if the AI has a weak spot there but still does an excellent job for planetary econ/buildings - that suits perfectly my anticipated gameplay style for MoO3

[leiavoia]

Originally posted by Master Marcus
curious... after reading bad reviews related threads, I'm even MORE attracted to MoO3 than before ...I like complex simulation games, and I like so far the way BTs respond to the various flaming comments. Anyway, I'll micromanage my entire military and I would have even with a PERFECT AI, so if the AI has a weak spot there but still does an excellent job for planetary econ/buildings - that suits perfectly my anticipated gameplay style for MoO3

i admire your anticipation, but tell your family to carry a straight jacket around with them just in case you go insane.

don't let me tell you "i told you so!" tomorrow, ok?

[KoalaBear33]

I think I know what the biggest problem with MOO is (apart from graphics and the combat):

It's the MANUAL!!!!!!

After reading all these reviews (both positive and negative), it seems that no one really knows what is going on in the game. My guess is that the manual and the civilopedia (or whatever it is called) don't explain enough.

As pointed out above, the AVault reviewer complains about enemy ships just sitting in your systems doing nothing. Obviously, he/she didn't know about blockading. People who have followed the game (i.e. hardcore fans) will know about it but no one else. Is this a fault with the game? Not really. It is the lack of documentation and dissipation of information.

A lot of so-called "flaws" with the game can't be patched, other than to explain what is happening in the game.

If Quicksilver or Infogrames has the resources, they should SERIOUSLY consider putting up a website where they have tutorials and guides for game players. Fansites will generally do a better job but it takes time (6+ months). The developers and designers will obviously have more in-depth knowledge and will be able to answer questions. Blizzard is well known for its strategy site, where people can find out more info (eg. Starcraft Compendium). I don't think IG has enough resources to do an extensive site but at least something is better.

We want games to be complex and fun... but if one can't even figure out what is going on, it is neither fun nor complex...

KoalaBear33

[Bkeela]

So i don't think that the Avault review is bad or wrong. There are several legitimate complaints one could make about MOO3. However, like i've said earlier, there are some blatant errors in the review, so take it with a big grain of salt and just go buy the game yourself - then decide if it's good or not.

I find this buy and then decide concept very disturbing. I might be the only one here who doesn't have money to burn, but I will certainly not buy the game, and then shrug and put it on the shelf if I'm not satisfied. I would recommend people to borrow then decide, or else not buy it if they are in doubt.

I can't believe the bought opinions I'm seeing in this forum.

Bkeela.

[Spectrex]

The avault review is not at all like the one on Qt3, the former was written by someone who seems to have really played the game, admits it's complex and seems to evaluate it fairly. The latter is just trash.

Anyhow it is somewhat unsettling that various reviews take opposite stances on identical points (e.g. the planetary AI). I suppose we'll just have to play it tomorrow and see for ourselves....

[Strollen]

After Tom's review and Avault. My pre-order is cancelled. I have been waiting for this game for 2 years so I am really disappointed.

But after wasting time an money on Space Empire IV, Imperium Galatica II, almost buying Reach for the Stars (I played the original on the apple II!), I am finished with throwing money away on poorly designed games.

I predict the fire storm of complaints on this forum will make the Civ3 forum (right after release) look like a love feast by comparison.

[sfsuphysics]

Originally posted by Strollen
After Tom's review and Avault. My pre-order is cancelled. I have been waiting for this game for 2 years so I am really disappointed.

Wow, I sure hope you don't ever vote, if you're going to base all your assumptions off of 2 reviews...

[SIZE=1] I predict the fire storm of complaints on this forum will make the Civ3 forum (right after release) look like a love feast by comparison.

Well not having seen the Civ3 forum complaints at the time I can't comment, but you name a game, I'll be willing to bet there were numerous complaints about it.
Funny you don't see many beta tester's complaining much, nor actual review sites to be perfectly honest, AVault had it as an average game, and Tom, well who the hell is that nimrod?

But hey its all your choice, if you really felt this strongly in the first place maybe you should of waited instead of pre-ordered anyways? Perhaps wait until others get the game, then let them speak on it.