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  • MoO2 Tech Choices

    moomin suggested a thread about the hardest tech choices. I think that is a good idea because it might reveal some of the strategic thinking and outlook we have.

    I have some free time right now, so here are the ones I see as tough choices:

    (note: This got real long, so I put the conclusions in a seperate post after this. If you want, skip to the second post.)

    Construction
    ----------------
    80: Reinforced Hull vs Anti Missile Rockets: Reinforced is usually the choice, but with all the missiles in early warfare the rockets would be nice.

    150: Automated Factories vs Missile Base: Actually not a hard choice, AF are must have that early, but early cheap planet defense would be nice too. Starbases are still too expensive at that point to make easily.

    650: Battlestation vs Robo Mining Plant: Same story, the production boost is must have. But sometimes, if not warlord, I could really use the command point boost.

    1500: Planet Construction vs Recyclotron: Production boost or more planets for more production? I guess the higher population your worlds, the better the recyclotron.

    3500: Core Waste Dump vs Deep Core Mining: A tough one, both are great. If I get waste dump, I don't get atmospheric renewer at 1150 Chemistry, and vice versa.

    6000: Advanced City Planning vs Star Fortress: Another tough one. More population = more power, but sometimes command points are so desperately needed.


    Power
    --------
    3500: Energy Absorber vs High Energy Focus vs Megafluxers: Two good specials or more space. I usually go megafluxers, because space is the real limit in starship design.


    Chemistry
    ------------
    No hard ones for me here.


    Sociology
    -----------
    Only one choice to even make here.


    Computers
    --------------
    150: Research Lab vs Optronic Computer vs Dauntless: A clear choice, the research lab is must have and usually the first tech you get. But optronic and dauntless are both techs that could really have an effect on early warfare, with its low beam accuracy and heavy use of missiles. They are ones that hurt to pass up.

    400: Neural Scanner vs Scout Lab: Again, neural scanner is a clear choice. But this early there may be still-tough monsters guarding great planets, and there is Orion to kill, so scout labs would have been nice (they are useless late game of course).

    900: Holo Simulator vs Planetary Supercomputer vs Positronic Computer: A tough one. Supercomputer makes future tech easier to get. But morale can be huge, and since you probably passed up optronic you really need that positronic to switch to beam ships.

    2750: Autolab vs Cybertronic vs Structual Analyzer: Another tough one. The analyzer is a great damage special. Autolab and cybertronic are the same story as last time. Generally if it looks like I'm gonna have smaller population, generalist worlds I get positronic and autolab. If I'm gonna have higher population, specialist worlds I get supercomputer and cybertronic.

    4500: Galactic Cybernet vs Virtual Reality Network: Morale or research. Later game morale is better, but since it makes sense to research techs that will make future research easier first, I'm often here with plenty left to research.

    6000: Achilles Targeting vs Molecular Computer vs Pleasure Dome: Two great combat techs or a big morale boost. I don't have any insight on this one, usually depends on the game I guess.


    Biology
    ---------
    80: Biospheres vs Hydroponic: I always go biospheres because population is power, and hydroponics will probably be unnecesary later on. However, early on hydroponic farms are nice to have.

    400: Cloning Center vs Soil Enrichment: I usually get cloning center, but this early food is still a problem and soil enrichment would help. The more hydroponic and subterranean farms you use, the less important soil enrichment is.

    1500: Subterranean Farms vs Weather Control System: Ok, not a hard choice, but one that depends on your food strategy, breadbasket world vs self suffciency. I think its best to go either biosphere + weather control (breadbasket) or hydroponic + subterranean (self sufficient).

    2750: Heightened Intelligence vs Psionics: If you are a dictatorship, this is a real tough one. Another morale vs research choice like in the computer line.

    7500: Evolutionary Mutation vs Gaia Transformation: Again not really a hard choice, but I always miss passing up Gaia.


    Physics
    ---------
    250: Battle Scanner vs Tachyon Communications vs Tachyon Scanner: A real tough one for me. Early on for beam combat you need that battle scanner. But command points are always needed and you'll miss it later. Even the scanner would be nice for more information / recon.

    900: Neutron Blaster vs Neutron Scanner: Since I probably passed on the tachyon scanner, I really want the neutron one. But killing marines is great for capture ships.

    1500: Jump Gate vs Sub-Space Communications: Very hard choice. Jump gates are so great for easy defense, but sub-space are the ever valuable command points and the ability to change destinations. You have to plan ahead what you are going to pick at the 15,000 level.

    2000: Multi Phased Shields vs Phasors: Defense or offense? I usually get phasors. SP is great, and phasors are the best PD weapon, which gives them a little defensive value also.

    6000: Hyper Space Communications vs Mauler Device vs Sensors: A real tough one. The usual command point problem, a killer weapon, or great recon / warning.

    15000: Star Gate vs Stellar Converter vs Time Warp: Instant movement is huge, especially when you conquer something deep in enemy spacve. Converters and time warp are both powerful.


    Fields
    -------
    900: Class III Shield vs Radiation Shield: The first worth while shield is important for all your ships. However, if you have a lot of radiated planets or even just one rich radiated planet the radiation shield is important. You have to choose between ship and planet shields 3 times.

    2750: Class V Shield vs Gauss Cannon: Decent shields or upgrade your mass drivers? A hard choice if you like the mass driver line.

    Thats all of the hard ones, as I see it. I think a lot could be learned from finding out what people consider hard or easy choices, and what is must have.

    Sorry this got so long, I guess I'm a typer.
    Good = Love, Love = Good
    Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

  • #2
    Here are some conclusions:

    There are some repeating tradeoff decisions. Sometimes they are interconnected through different fields. Here are the hard decision tradeoffs I see:

    Construction
    150: Production vs Other (Missile Base)
    650: Production vs Command
    1500: Production vs Population
    6000: Population vs Command

    Computers
    150: Research vs Beams
    900: Research vs Beams vs Morale
    2750: Research vs Beams
    4500: Research vs Morale
    6000: Beams vs Morale

    Biology
    80: Food vs Population
    400: Food vs Population
    2750: Research vs Morale (Dicators only)
    7500: Population vs Other (Evolution)

    Physics
    250: Command vs Beams
    1500: Command vs Other (Jump Gates)
    6000: Command vs Other (Mauler or Sensors)

    Fields
    900: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield
    4500: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield
    15000: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield

    Also some techs are redundant and don't stack:
    1. Beams under computers (ship computers)
    2. Command under physics (communications)
    3. Ship and planet shields under fields
    4. Though its not listed above, also note core waste dumps vs pollution processor and atmospheric renewer

    Hopefully this tradeoff chart gives a different way to look at the tough choices. Its important to make good decisions about balancing strengths or being specialized.

    Thanks for reading.
    Good = Love, Love = Good
    Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

    Comment


    • #3
      I think most are obvious and you went with the only ones you could.
      Sub Farms vs Weather - weather stations can not be put on some planets so farms is easy to pick.
      Evolution vs Gaia - this is easy for me, take gaia as I do not need more picks at this stage, the game is in the bag.
      I would never take atrifical planets over recycle as I only make planets if I am wanting to boost my score. I can steal it.
      Advanced planning is clear choice over Fortress. You can do with out them as they will not save a planet late anyway. You will need a fleet to stop a large fleet.

      Comment


      • #4
        For sub farms vs weather station, I go weather station if I am using a farming planet (or two) to feed my empire, and I only build one there for a huge bonus.

        I guess I usually don't do hyrdoponics or sub farms, because I don't think they are worth the upkeep cost. However, using the breadbasket strategy requires a large freighter fleet, so maybe it breaks even.

        Maybe the best thing is one or two farmers on every planet to reduce freighter fleet size, and many farmers on fertile worlds to cover any food deficit.

        For evolution vs gaia, you really might be right. I spend so much time agonizing over custom race picks, it always seemed awesome to get 4 extra points to me.

        For artificial planets vs recyclotron, you are right. Now that I think about it, I usually get recyclotron, because I don't want more planets to manage. One small thing, if I have a fantastic colony leader, I'd like to get another planet for him to work his bonus on.

        For advanced planning vs star fortress, again you are probably right. I just want to say, I don't want the fortress for defense, fleets are way to big then. I want them for more command points, to pay for the big fleets.
        Good = Love, Love = Good
        Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

        Comment


        • #5
          Hmm. I agree with some of the choices. The whole science/comp/morale building ladder is a tough customer - most of my wars start when I want to steal items I didn't get here...

          I also agree with vmxa that other choices are rather clear-cut. Recyclotron, advanced city planning and gaia are obvious to me. I don't sweat over farms either, although I like getting the weather thingy for a nice native gaia. Biospheres over hydroponics, because the AIs will beg you to trade anything for their hydro while they refuse to trade biospheres until it's much too late. Cloning centers each time. Always battle scanner over tachyon - the battle scanner is essential well into the end-game. Sub-space every time too. And Star Gate.
          "The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
          "I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.

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          • #6
            Nato, my big concern about the concept of a farming planet is that blockades are common. If they blockade my farm planet, then what? Here is some of my thoughts, I will eventually try to test this:
            at the start much of your work force is already commited to food and when subs farms come along they could free a lot of them. Blockades are most common just prior to that time, so it will be hard to service planets with short falls. In the mid game the AI likes to send a solos ship to blockage so you could benefit from increased farming. No soil improvements on hostile planets with no farming. Lots of factors and many dificult choices.

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            • #7
              I think it is really silly that planets with starbases, etc. can be blockaded.
              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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              • #8
                You have a point. I can live with, as it is not unreasonable to say that a fleet could interdict unescorted shipments. In Star generals you could escort ships that handled trade. It is very painful to be blockaded if no farming.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am surprised you have nothing for chemistry. That's one of the hardest for me.

                  Range, Armor, Pollution and Missiles.

                  Toughest choice for me is the level with microlite, nano dissamblers and zortrium.

                  All the tough choices in the other categories are easier. For example I would like missile base, but I NEED auto factories.

                  Same for the research vs beams. I take cybertronic over autolab though. I can often steal autolab.

                  A lot depends on what I can trade for/steal too!
                  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Wan's apprentice.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well these were just the ones I saw as difficult. I'm definitely happy to hear other opinions, especially since the big people here have more MoO experience than me.

                    For instance, I'm still surprised about the gaia vs evolution thing.

                    Just speaking for myself, Chemistry doesn't seem hard to me. The only missiles I'm going to use a lot of are MIRV nukes; after those I try to switch to beams. So I'm not interested in more missile techs. For pollution I either get PP + atmospheric renewer, or just core waste dumps; so I don't see pollution as pressing either. Just how I see it.

                    For the one you mention, I never had a problem choosing microlite. I see what you mean though, there are a lot of tradeoffs in chemistry too.

                    All the tough choices in the other categories are easier. For example I would like missile base, but I NEED auto factories.
                    I think I was going a different direction with this than people seem to take it. I was trying to list the choices with the highest opportunity cost ... the things you most miss getting. Maybe I mislabled this.

                    Of course I ALWAYS get auto factories, no question. Its not like I'm thinking hard to decide there. I just find the missile bases something I miss a lot (early game only), so they are a high opportunity cost.
                    Good = Love, Love = Good
                    Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nato
                      For instance, I'm still surprised about the gaia vs evolution thing.

                      For the one you mention, I never had a problem choosing microlite. I see what you mean though, there are a lot of tradeoffs in chemistry too.

                      Of course I ALWAYS get auto factories, no question. Its not like I'm thinking hard to decide there. I just find the missile bases something I miss a lot (early game only), so they are a high opportunity cost.
                      Well what are your thoughts on the Gaia issue now? Do you see the value of Gaia to a large empire compared to 4 more pciks? Those picks come at a time that you are normally kicking butt anyway. When you consider that you can win with no picks, do you need 4 more after using 20? Admittedly you can do either and win.
                      Nano Tech is one that most players at most times will take Zortrium. Passing on Nano Dis cost you pollution until you get Core Dumps (if you get them) unless you are a race that ignores pollution. Microlite add +1 production to all industry workers and that is no small amount over an empire each turn. It all hurts. Once in awhile I will be able to skip armor as I got to Orion and came out with X-armor.
                      I miss those missile bases as well and have lost planets that I would have saved if I had them.

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                      • #12
                        I think that the 150 rp pick of:
                        Dauntless guide, Opt comp and labs is easy to make, but not easy to live with. The guidance system is so useful in the early game. It allows your missiles to retarget. The AI not having that is what lets me win those early fights. I can retreat a targeted ship and those missles go away. My 2 rounds of missile stay on to hit as I have some ship that is not targeted.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah I see that in most cases Gaia will be more valuable than evolution. I just said I'm still surprised by it kind of. But it makes sense, more population is more power. Thats why subterranean is so good.

                          Like I said, I just spend so much time agonizing over custom race picks, it never even occured to me not to get more.

                          Man it would be nice to have those 4 extra at the start though ... I love designing races.
                          Good = Love, Love = Good
                          Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

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                          • #14
                            Yes it is a big part of the replayablitiy.

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                            • #15
                              I just play creative: at 8 points, its very expensive, but I never have to choose.
                              If you don't like reality, change it! me
                              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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