research

[ruitodobom]

I was going to post this on the Moo3 Official forums, but it's hard to acess them....

I've read several stuff about research, and some got me confused. For example

1- we'll be able to research all tech, sooner or later, like other civ games

2- the tech is suposed to be random, so you can't "aim" for a particular tech


Now... how can these 2 work out together? Or have I read something wrong? Is someone able to clear me out?

[vmxa1]

Rantz answered that question here, but I don't recall what thread and I did not pay any attention to the answer as I will wait for the game to find out.

[moomin]

My main beef with research in any 4x game was that it was all know. Even in Moo, you knew what existed in the game and how useful it would be - just not if it existed as a choice in this particular game.

I'm still looking for a game where techs you are researching for will be real unknowns in every game. Moo3 won't be it, I understand.

[SeanV]

The answer is...

To answer your question ruitodobom:

I believe the tech system will operate like the original MOO system.
If you haven't ever played it, it works something like this: There is a tech tree and when a new game is generated techs get picked randomly and are put into a smaller tech tree that you actually research that game. Thus you don't research the same thing every game and you can't just race up the tree and get the super-destructo ray because the thing won't (might) not be there!

P.S. Moomin: How in the world could anyone manage to do that?
Just wondering.

[Bleyn]

Re: The answer is...

Originally posted by SeanV
To answer your question ruitodobom:

I believe the tech system will operate like the original MOO system.
If you haven't ever played it, it works something like this: There is a tech tree and when a new game is generated techs get picked randomly and are put into a smaller tech tree that you actually research that game. Thus you don't research the same thing every game and you can't just race up the tree and get the super-destructo ray because the thing won't (might) not be there!

P.S. Moomin: How in the world could anyone manage to do that?
Just wondering.

Two things. A slight clarification, and a comment.

First, the clarification. IIRC, the original MOO research system was set up so that the tech trees that each race saw in a game were different. So it was possible to pick up techs you never got a chance to research from other empires by one means or another. I liked this and hope its in Moo3.


Second, a comment. While I would agree that it would be rather difficult to fully implement Moomin's idea for a research system, I think a slightly scaled back version that could help a 4x game stay interesting is possible. This could be done by having the tech tree knowable, and the general results knowable, but the exact specifics randomized from game to game.

Ie. In terms of a space-based 4x game, one might know that researching the 4th-generation shield tech will give one 4th generation shields, but the exact cost, size, and damage protection level would be randomized within certain pre-set ranges. So, you'ld know in choosing to research the Shield 4 tech that it should be better than Shield 3, but you won't know how much better until you've researched it. It could even be set up with overlaps so that there is a chance that one or more aspect of a tech is slightly worse than the tech just below it.

Done this way, I suspect ones research choices might not be quite so automatic as it typically is.

[Straybow]

I had proposed a fuzzy-numbers idea way back when QS first opened a forum on Delphi boards. It won't be in this game. But it is a good idea, IMNSHO.

[moomin]

I'm with the fuzzy numbers. I also think a theory/practice breakdown would be interesting and add to strategy, but fuzzy numbers are the best thing. Add chopped tech tree's for every game and you're almost there.

[ruitodobom]

Tnks for the tips!

Honestly, I'm very happy it's like Moo1 (I know it well), but I was in doubt due to the 2 phrases I heard. Like this we are obliged to make trade with other species!

I do hope we'll be able to see a bit into the future of the tech tree (say 2 or 3 advances) so we can define a bit the strategy to take....

[Anguille2]

Re: research

[QUOTE] Originally posted by ruitodobom
I was going to post this on the Moo3 Official forums, but it's hard to acess them....

you're kidding....it's more than hard: now it is almost impossible!!!!

[Llama]

Re: Re: The answer is...

Originally posted by Bleyn


Two things. A slight clarification, and a comment.

First, the clarification. IIRC, the original MOO research system was set up so that the tech trees that each race saw in a game were different. So it was possible to pick up techs you never got a chance to research from other empires by one means or another. I liked this and hope its in Moo3.

Well, as far as we know, it's not going to be done quite like this.
1)All the tech's will be avaliable in each game.
2)Each tech has a primary pre-requisite (which is the same every game).
3)Each tech has a secondary (& possibly a tertiary) pre-req which will be in the same field each game, but the level will vary by, say, +- 10%.
4)Every race/empire can research every tech, but (I think) some races are better at research in certain fields (which may or may not be random each game), so it'll be a lot easier for some races to either trade or steal certain techs.
And how the actual research is done is a lot closer to MOO 'cause it uses sliders to control the amount of RP's you invest in a particular field/school/tech(I think).
And apparently in a "normal" game you're only likely to get through ~70% of the tech tree/wheel (assuming that you don't want to drag the game out to get the last few techs).


Ruitodobom: I don't think that we'll have to trade with the other races/empires, but it'll be a lot easier to get some tech's if we do.

[Xentax]

As far as I know, even the primary field level requirement can/will vary slightly.

Things are a bit simpler than they used to be, but some techs have secondary field requirements, and some may still have tertiary requirements (at least some techs did in the original setup).

[ruitodobom]

ok.... now I understand the meaning of "random tech" that was confusing me.

Still I must confess that maybe, just maybe, I prefer the moo1 or moo2 "not all tech avaliable system", but the fact we won't be able to pick EXACTLY the improvements I want also satisfies me. In moo2 I always go for the same stuff. In Moo3 it'll be harder to do so! At least I hope it will....

[Grumbold]

I like the idea that you can research everything. It appeals to me that the laws of physics ought to be the same for everyone. That would not stop different races from having fields in which they excel that allow them to progress up the tech tree in different ways. The difficulty lies in making a much larger pool of potential technologies to research that remain balanced and useful when a significant number of them will not be used in many games.

I am a fan of the infinite tech tree too. There should never be an insurmountable barrier to progress in any field. The cost of research may become exponential and the gains may only be minor but it should never stop.

[Glostakarov]

A variable tech tree could be done with a massive amount of technologies, only 25% of which your scientists will come up over the course of a game. The others they won't even think of, so you won't have a chance to research them. Of course you could still trade for them or steal them, but that would mean someone else made their 25% chance and had it.

[Mahdimael]

I loved the random techs in MOO1. As I remember, you always got a certain number of the different types of techs, like missile jammers, shields, armor, etc. I always hoped to get the Black Hole Generator...that thing rocked.

It makes sense that you can't learn everything...different people approach things differently, and I'm sure aliens do as well. Plus the system encouraged trade and spying, which was cool.

To me, MOO2 ruined the tech trees (especially with the "creative" bonus. Each level almost always had one very good tech and two less good ones.

Ah well. Just as long as I get the Black-Hole-Generator-Equivalent most of the time, I'll be good.