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Moo vs. Moo2

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  • #31
    Firstly, consider three 'classes' of ship: (1) Built and in service - all the ships in your fleets; (2) Designed but not built - ships on the drawing board, including those under construction; (3) Not yet designed - these exist only in your imagination, probably pending a tech advance(s).

    Now, consider the automatic upgrades: (1) Instant upgrades (Drives and Fuel Cells) - these are applied instantly and automatically to all classes of ship, primarily to save the program the bookkeeping of remembering each ship's strategic speed and range independently; (2) Free upgrade (Armour) - this is applied to ships of classes 2 and 3, but not to those already built. Thus, gaining an armour tech does not require you manually to upgrade ships being built or on the drawing
    board, but you will have to refit ships already in service; (3) Optional upgrades (Shields and Computers) - these are not applied to classes 1 or 2, but will be applied to any new designs you create after the advance is gained. Since these both have costs based on their level of sophistication relative to your level of advancement within the tech, the option exists to select older (and hence cheaper) versions when designing your ship.

    Now, of these, only shields take up space, and, like any other system, the space taken by a shield reduces as your knowledge advances beyond its level. Therefore, if you have a design using (say) Class III Shield, and you then research Personal Shield, Warp Inderdictor, Gauss Cannon, Planetary Flux Shield, and Sub-Space Teleporter (as you might), you'll find, when redesigning or refitting this class of ship, that it has more space, because the Class III Shield has 'shrunk'.
    However, this doesn't affect ships in service, in the build queue, or designs on the board - the new, smaller shield only gets fitted to new designs, and thereby to anything refitted to that design. Thus, ships built to an older design don't gain any free space from subsequent advances, but new designs do.

    Both shields and computers (as well as all weapons and optional systems)have costs, which reduce as your advances cumulate. The costs of weapons are simple - each gun costs X, so 10 guns cost 10 * X. When the cost has come down to Y, those 10 guns will cost 10 * Y. Optional systems, shields, and computers have their costs based on the hull size they're being fitted to. But the costs still reduce at much the same rate. So if you have a ship designed with Computer C, Shield S, Weapon W, and Optional System O, it will cost its hull-size cost plus C+S+W+O. If you put one in the build queue, that cost is now fixed for the ship under construction. If you then research one tech level beyond each of the components, the cost to build another of these ships will be reduced to the hull-size cost plus (75% of C)+(75% of W)+(75% of O)+(75% of S).
    You can add this ship to the build queue at the reduced cost, but if the previous one isn't completed yet, it will still have its original cost. So, both old and new ship designs do benefit from cost reduction due to advancement, but ships already built or building do not.

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    • #32
      It's not that hard to add some of the best features of MoO 2 to the original. I would say the ability to outpost is actually the best additon in MoO 2. Static defenses aren't the great. The requirement to have a staryard before building large ships is nice, though.
      (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
      (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
      (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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      • #33
        Ive never played MOO, but I personally cant find too much fault with Moo2.

        A lot of you think there is too much MM, but I think there is just about the right amount. I know the game indide out and know exactly what Im going to build in which order for every planet I have.

        It seems a build que is the best way to build. Some of you think sliders are better, but the fact is if you have a set amount of PP or RP, surely you are going to finish at the same time anyway, in fact you will benefit sooner wwith a well thought out que.

        Just about the only gripe I have is the size of the map is too small, and you can finish the researching techs too quick. At the end of the game, Im discovering stuff almost as fast as I can build it.

        I dont even bother with and missiles or beams worse than plasma, as all the preceding weapon techs are quick to research by the time you need weapons (on a big map).

        The other thing that pisses me off silly is when you are framed and they declare war on you. No matter what you give they refuse to make peace again.

        It would also be nice to design star bases and ground defences.

        Death Rays and particle beams are pants, and you can only have these if you capture orion. They dont miniturise, and dont match either the mauler or plasma cannon - esp after miniturisation
        The strength and ferocity of a rhinoceros... The speed and agility of a jungle cat... the intelligence of a garden snail.

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        • #34
          There's too much MM in Moo2. No doubt about it - if there where default build queues they would go a long way towards making the end-game more enjoyable. The Moo sliders are a much better solution.

          Let's see how they handle this in Moo3.
          "The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
          "I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.

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          • #35
            I liked having massive fleets in MOO1, being able to produce more than 1 thing per planet in a turn, having to research different plantet types for colonization, and assassinating leaders. The repulsor was great too.

            In MOO2 even if your planet has the ability to make a fleet of 20 scouts / turn it will only make 1. Which is silly. The diplomacy was improved a bit... but lacking. When they say "Hey, join me in an Alliance" it would be nice to know *at that very moment* who they are at war with etc., since you are basically signing on and about to lose your trade agreements. Or to say, "okay - if you give me mass drivers" (moo3!) The planet view of all your buildings was useless. I liked the bargraph style better in Moo1. Custom races and ships made the game.

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            • #36
              Had been said before, but:

              MoO1:
              +Tech's are better, more options/possibilties there.
              Maps are faaaar bigger.
              +Spying was easier and harder at the same time. Easier to 'get' spies, no damned MM to build them, just a slider. Harder because of framing. And the AI actually used it. Visible affect of spies (V).
              +Different kinds of planets, again more important to research!
              +The races seemed a bit more real.
              +design more balanced (ships, at least till High Enery focus/Sub teleporter). Even the AI is able to use the Repulsor properly.
              + planetary shields.

              And some other points, but too lazy to tipe them now

              MoO2:
              ++Leaders, but not enough
              +Upgrade of ships
              +Custom race (too powerful for the human, or at least no counterpart existing for the AI)
              + Too dependend on the starting location.
              +OK Graphics better, but doesn't really count.
              - too static defence, You always need to build Starbase MD and whatever.
              - planetary shields, you had to add them extra into the queue, but not really needed, they made hell of a difference in MoO1. Either you fight them off or you'll lost anyway.

              Also I think the AI was more taking the colonies in MoO1 as in 2? But might be just me??????

              To decide, which one is better:

              I can only say: I don't know!?!?!?!?

              They both are good, but MoO1 was a bit more 'original'. It is/was different. That's what I am enjoying again

              But I am not sure, if I'll go for MoO3.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gilgamensch
                MoO2:
                - planetary shields, you had to add them extra into the queue, but not really needed, they made hell of a difference in MoO1. Either you fight them off or you'll lost anyway.
                This is an often over looked point. In Moo2 if they could not defeat the planets defenses they blockade. They do not attack with less than enough to beat the planet very often. In Moo1 they would no be able to blockade and would attack with less than enough to win all the time. Your shields could be strong enough to hold off destruction, even if they did beat your defenses. Also bio weapons could be seen to have an effect in Moo1. If you did not have the tech to handle bios you took damage, even if they could not bust your shields. In Moo2, I hve no idea if it matters or not. We did have antidote tech in Moo2, but I never saw any bios used.

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                • #38
                  I don't know about you but when I play strategy games, it is to build empires and feel like I am an emperor who merely needed to speak to get things done.

                  MOO1 felt like that.

                  In MOO2, I felt like a freakin house maid trying to take care of the needs of some cranky and spoiled toddlers.

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                  • #39
                    vmxa1,

                    the antidote in MoO2 is actually just increasing population growth. So not as important as in MoO1. And yes, you are right, even with shields they were able to damage your pop, only you hadn't had the right anti-tech. That was a thing far more balanced in part 1. Tech - Anti-tech. OK, except the combo High-energy-focus/Repulsor-beam. The AI seems never be using it

                    Corentor,

                    Yes, MoO2 was a bit too much MM (Micro-managment). Even as they implemented build-queues, but you weren't able to 'save' those and with all the stuff you have to build, get's quite a bit of work. Faaar easier in MoO1. You just had some sliders and that was it. It also makes more seens at this level of 'ruling'. You are the big boss, why do you have to tell every single person and planet wth (what the hell) to do . But again, that was sometimes a part in MoO2, which wasn't so bad, as you 'are' still able to outrun the AI, he seems to be never using so much the transporters (food).

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                    • #40
                      The more complex the model, the more difficult it is to program a competent AI.
                      "Barbarism is the natural state of mankind... Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always triumph."

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                      • #41
                        Yes and no,

                        take the latest chess-program, I think it is called Fritz, the acting champion had a hard time beating it and I think nobody denies that those guys are a 'bit' better then we are.

                        But the big difference is, that in chess the position IS known, in any other game (Strat.,4X,....) the position are not known. Unlike a human being the computer/software can not extrapolate into the unkown, it has to run on facts. That were the human has a large advantage over the AI. The rest (MM/design/....) the AI could be far better than the human, if it has been written right.

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                        • #42
                          In Moo small and medium design ships are most useful
                          and part of a stategy. MOO2 it just is more "bigger is
                          better".

                          M00 is superior.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ozz
                            MOO2 it just is more "bigger is
                            better".
                            .
                            Sounds like the Trogarchs just so dumb!!
                            "Give us peace in our time",

                            Stuart Adamson, singer from Big Country, 1958-2001.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Corentor
                              I don't know about you but when I play strategy games, it is to build empires and feel like I am an emperor who merely needed to speak to get things done.

                              MOO1 felt like that.

                              In MOO2, I felt like a freakin house maid trying to take care of the needs of some cranky and spoiled toddlers.
                              That's certainly an interesting - and valid - POW.
                              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                              • #45
                                I don't know why I never thought to mention this before, but I just got advance soil in Moo1 and it made me realize something. The pop boost is very pleasing in Moo1. I mean when I get to jump my pop up in a big chunk with soil or a + pop such as +60 when my last one was +20.

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