ship designs in mid and late game

[Aqa]

As I said in the another thread I just started playing again and it has been years since I last played Moo2 but back then my favorite ship design(and almost only one I ever used) was "indestructible" titan class ship:
Loads of plasma cannons(>10)
Automated repair(or the advanced version)
All possible shield boosters(except maybe heavy or strong or whatever it was called)
Heavy armor
It was always, and I really mean always as I played quite a bit those days, that if enemy couldn't take it out in one turn (meaning over 1000 damage) it was in full
condition on the next turn or at least shields were back to max. And plasma cannons packed quite a punch taking out every enemy ship on one shot(except DS of course)

[vmxa1]

A ship of that type is fine for ship to ship combat, but planets with all the defences including Barrier Shield would be impervious to it. If you are talking about a 1.2 version of Moo it is a better ship than 1.31 which increased the size of plasma cannons. Disrupters are a better all around choice as they can bust planets as well and do not have a range penalty. For ship to ship try phasors with mods and see if they do no work better. Plasma in 1.31 is so large and has a huge range penalty. You get phasors first so I use them until I get disrupters.

[Garth Vader]

If the AI doesn't have much for shields then Plasma cannon rules. If they have class 5 or higher it gets better to use phasors.

[vmxa1]

Yup, that is why I switch to disrupters as cannon & phasors will not handle a maxed out palnetary defence. When I use to only use plasma cannons in the late game, I would do auto combat as nothing was bothering my ships. I would run into a planet that my BB's with only cannons would just sit there and twitch and not fire as they could do no damage. I would have to bring in a DS with a Stellar Convertor for that job. Now I have some titans with disrupters and no problem, back to auto combat. My BB's will have phasors for ships or maybe plasma cannons. Usually phasors as I already have that tech before plasma and I can select the plasma rifle instead (if not tele).

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Aqa

Loads of plasma cannons(>10)
Automated repair(or the advanced version)
All possible shield boosters(except maybe heavy or strong or whatever it was called)
Heavy armor
It was always, and I really mean always as I played quite a bit those days, that if enemy couldn't take it out in one turn (meaning over 1000 damage) it was in full
condition on the next turn or at least shields were back to max. And plasma cannons packed quite a punch taking out every enemy ship on one shot(except DS of course)

Some advice?
Dump the shields and boosters for the reinforced hull and the dampers. Shields only pad your ability to absorb hits whereas the damper quarters the total damage you take and amounts to much much more - especially with your auto-repair able to fix 30% of your hull each round.
Hence if you have 1000 combined hull/armour points you can absorb 1200 damage points in a round (before the damper effect) and still regenerate to full hull/armour by the next round. To take your ship out the AI would need to inflict a massive 4000 damage in a single round.
Against this sort of damage capacity shields just don't cut it.


Vmxa, what sort of range were your plasma ships attacking from? I've used plasma canons (actually they might have been heavy) against planets with barrier shields before and still inflicted damage. The range diffusion aspect hurts them more than most other weapons but up close they can still pack a punch.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ravagon
Vmxa, what sort of range were your plasma ships attacking from? I've used plasma canons (actually they might have been heavy) against planets with barrier shields before and still inflicted damage. The range diffusion aspect hurts them more than most other weapons but up close they can still pack a punch.

They had HV and the AI would not move them in. I used to run them in myself, but they still did no real damage.
Barrier Shield stop 20 points of damage from every weapon every round. Stop all invasion and bio weapons.
Add in Class X shields they can stop all damage from Plasma Cannons 6-30. AI is weak, but when it does not move a ship up for an attack, it is because it will not do any good. Just like Moo when they used to jump to the back of the screen when the weapons they had did not impact the planets shields.

[ravagon]

AI is weak, but when it does not move a ship up for an attack, it is because it will not do any good.

I guess this must be a version number issue. I've never bothered to patch mine so the AI combat always just closed to the maximum weapon range and let loose, regardless of weapon type or shielding, hence did very little damage ergo I never used it. The only time ships ever closed to point blank was when they carried a bomb payload.
I didn't think the (ship) shield class had any effect on planets in Moo2 - beyond rad/planetary/barrier shields of course?

[Aqa]

Well, plasma cannon and class X shields are not very near each other in the tech tree Plasma cannons rock very hard in the earlier phase of game, even more so because I focus my research to get them. The built in enveloping effect is very nice.

Ravagon, as it has been quite some time since I last played MOO2, I just can't remember everything, so how high are the dampers in the tech tree? I mean I focused my research to first getting plasma cannons and then titans(before getting titan hulls I usually already had couple battleships with plasma cannons, not so indestructible tough) and after that I usually walked over every AI. Most often I didn't even have DS:s before the game was more or less over.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ravagon


I guess this must be a version number issue. I've never bothered to patch mine so the AI combat always just closed to the maximum weapon range and let loose, regardless of weapon type or shielding, hence did very little damage ergo I never used it. The only time ships ever closed to point blank was when they carried a bomb payload.
I didn't think the (ship) shield class had any effect on planets in Moo2 - beyond rad/planetary/barrier shields of course?

Shields on ships have no effect you are correct. Shields and armour have effect for planetary defences.
Version 1.2 and early are really bogus. So many bugs that could crash the game. Creative cost only 6. Ai would surrender and give away systems at the drop of a hat. In fact they gave me systems for peace after they declared war and no attacks took place. Defenders went first on and on. It is almost not the same game. Oh, Plasma cannons were so powerful in those versions, they have to make them larger so you could not fit as many in a given ship.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Aqa
Well, plasma cannon and class X shields are not very near each other in the tech tree Plasma cannons rock very hard in the earlier phase of game, even more so because I focus my research to get them. The built in enveloping effect is very nice.

Dampers are not in the tech tree and you get it from Orion or capture Antie ships.
We were talking about the end game were you have all the tech discovered.
You may want to reconsider racing for plasma cannons as phasors are earlier in the tree and you really do not need the cannons, especially early in the game when you can not fit more than 4 in a BB as a non creative race as you will not have the tech that makes more room. Size 50 for 1 gun is very painful for the damage. Try a fight were you have a BB with 5 cannons or so and the same ship with as many modded phasors as fits. The phasors will take the ships down much sooner as they will bypass armor. Look at the ship as ir bluish armor bar stay full and the pinkish bar drops and the ship explodes doing collateral damage. I use to be in love with cannons, but the plain truth is they are not worth it. Of course once you get disrupters switch to using them. Probably the best gun in the game.

[Aqa]

I have to admit, that I used to play as a creative race Beginning was usually very slow and hard(bribe, bribe, bribe, wish that neighbours aren't repulsive) but after that.. Armour piercing phasors are nice, except if AI uses HA(happened to me once, I was happily bashing everyone with ap weapons(can't remember what) until AI put HA on ships, auch). True tough, that before 1.31 patch plasma cannons were much more powerful and as I played many games before 1.31 I kind of stuck with the plasma cannons(they were good before, they have to be still good). Don't know why, but masses of plasma cannons seem to cause more damage than they should(might be a version issue too).

I know you have played a lot vmxa1, but have you tried to use plasma cannons? I once used phasors on battleships and they were worse than battleships with plasma cannons even tough there was twice(?) the amount of phasors than plasma.

Yeah, I'm talking about ancient history, but if I get my games going again, I might change my mind about plasma cannons. Haven't had much time to play lately but weekend is coming...

Talking about end game, I had once (imp, huge) DS with 5(or 6, can't remember correctly) stellar converters, just because it really didin't matter anymore what I put in those things. Had a huge battle against psilons, both had >20 DS and >40 titans, meaning more ships than tactical combat supports. Was there any sense? No. It was just fun. BTW, I was "friends" with psilons troughout the game and psilons were not war with anyone ever.

[vmxa1]

Don't miss understand me, I do not mean to say that PC are no good they are and as I said I used them exclusively for years, but just like phasors there are jobs they can not do. I use to love the sounds they made. I still find myself everting back to them at times. What allows humans to win is we can adapt. When one does not work, we try another.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Aqa
Talking about end game, I had once (imp, huge) DS with 5(or 6, can't remember correctly) stellar converters, just because it really didin't matter anymore what I put in those things. Had a huge battle against psilons, both had >20 DS and >40 titans, meaning more ships than tactical combat supports. Was there any sense? No. It was just fun. BTW, I was "friends" with psilons troughout the game and psilons were not war with anyone ever.

You can have 100 ships oppose you that is the limit. It is possible and has been done to make one DS that can beat all 100 ships by itself. This is due to the AI not knowing ho to make invulnerable ships and dealing with one. It involves TWF and Phase Cloaks. I do not use them myself, just over kill normally. Good battling.

[Aqa]

I remeber psilons had smaller ships(battleships...) in that fleet but in battle there were only titans and DS:s so I guess I didn't remember numbers correctly.. But that was the only battle I ever had with DS against DS, usually game has ended before even I have had that tech.

So is it possible to make a ship that stays invisible all the time? I cannot imagine any other way to do it. How else can one ship absorb the damage of 300 stellar converters(psilons had at least one stelcon in every ship)?

[Aqa]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Don't miss understand me, I do not mean to say that PC are no good they are and as I said I used them exclusively for years, but just like phasors there are jobs they can not do. I use to love the sounds they made. I still find myself everting back to them at times. What allows humans to win is we can adapt. When one does not work, we try another.

Sorry, I just hate phasors So Star Trek but not nearly as effective

Just tested that for fun, made simultaneously battle ship with graviton beams and a battle ship with plasma cannons(same amount of space used on both, can't remember numbers). Attacked a planet with missile base and fighter garrison. Closed in to same range and fired. Grav beams made 148 damage. Plasma cannons made 320 damage...

BTW Just came to my mind, someone somewhere once told me about "adaptive" AI in MOO2. So does the AI adapt? I mean fighters are much more useless unless I close in, which I do to get most use of plasma cannons. Does the AI "learn" how I play?