Announced revisions to Moo3

[halley]

I have no problem with any of the changes, except Research. It would seem that now we are forced to research everything, even things we don't want. Definitely not good.

[lockstep]

With IFP's removed, QS is hopefully at least coming up with serious disincentives/penalties for micro-managing. Increased HFOG would be a possibility.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by lockstep
With IFP's removed, QS is hopefully at least coming up with serious disincentives/penalties for micro-managing. Increased HFOG would be a possibility.

Huh, Civ 3 tried something like that: the city Governors!

[lockstep]

Well, in Civ3 I never noticed a penalty for NOT using governors.

[Master Marcus]

Let's just hope they're not simplifying too much an ambitious game, but I'm more aware of how fast a system the user will need in order to run properly a micromanaged game in a huge galaxy of 10000 colonies...

[madmario]

[SIZE=1] There is a difference between "couldn't make it work" and "couldn't be bothered to make it work."

I'd put my money on it too, since it's a general model of things in the hobby. I mean, it's all complex, with money and all, but yeah.

I'm starting to think, "I already have SE.IV."

-mario

[Blade Runner]

Ohhh...
I am devastated. The research system was my favorite part of the game. Why they kill it? They think we have not enough brain to understand what we want from it? I hope they leave the original research system code and we can somehow hacking back.

Blade

[BucksRock]

Originally posted by Stormhound
I'm going to have to amend a prior statement. Based on what's in the Q&A thread, the research model has not just been dumbed down, but lobotomized.

Functionally, it's now the MOO1 model again with a few cute wrinkles and renamed bits. (Fundamental research is equivalent to the base funding you had to put in, while applied is now equivalent to the random chance per turn of getting the project.) While I liked that model better than the MOO2 model, that doesn't mean we didn't need some progress.
But hey, retro is in fashion again, right?

I detect an HFOIG (Heavy Foot Of Infogrames). If IG is so bound and determined to lobotomize great strategy games, why not just release them for the X-Box or PS2? What "average gamer" are they aiming for? 10 year old Diablo 2 vets with an attention span comparable to pro athletes' 40 yard dash times? It seems to me that IG won't stop until they hit the Great Strategy Game Carnal Canine Trifecta, in other words screwing the pooch on Civ 3, Moo 3 and MOM 2. Then they'll wonder why no one is buying MOO 4, Civ 4 and MOM 3, only to realize too late that the "average gamers" they're aiming for will have grown up and gone on to bigger and better things, and the "hardcore" fanbase will have long evaporated, disgusted at the dumbing down of their favorite game.

Thanks for the analysis Stormhound.

[vishniac]

"will have grown up and gone on to bigger and better things"

I visited the Europa Universalis site yesterday. They are selling EU2 these days and they sure didn't aim to mainstream to please the 'average player' who could be 'scared' by too much information.

MORE complexity, MORE scope, MORE options, LONGER !
Too bad I already own EU.
Bah, I can wait and my money for MOO3 will probably go to EU2 then!

[AnubisWoD]

IFPs were a mistake in the first place. They limited people ability to play a game as if it was a jail .

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Stormhound
A few comments. If I don't address something, it means I didn't have anything terribly worthwhile to say.

Task Forces: knew about this one ahead of time, and it was a "shrug" item. It does simplify a couple things, so no biggie.

Technology: in other words, the player loses choices over what he wants to invest in, or when. The old system allowed you to bypass items you didn't want, or delay research so you could lessen the risk of roadblocks. A simple case of "dumbing down" the system.

Ship AI: some improvements were needed here, though the full management load is now put back on the player. Probably a wash, all things considered.

Population migration: I'll have to see this to believe it. Your population just became more brain-dead and subject to your whims, so I suppose that'll please a lot of players, however.

Exploration: Probably an improvement, but the old system was still lots neater.

Orion Senate: Just be glad that you never got to see the details of the original, so you'll never know what's missing.

Diplomacy AI: just as the ship AI, putting all decisions back in the player's hands. An inevitable byproduct of axing IFP.

Spies: the old way was neat, but messy. This one I knew about, and wasn't worried over.

Leaders: dumbing down the system. Should make those who liked the MOO2 way much happier, though. We'll just have to wait and see whether the promised new small bunch of leaders is worth being interested in, or if they're just as bland as the larger bunch supposedly was.

Economy: I have a good hunch what'll be coming down the pike here, and it may well be an improvement gamewise though it's going to make worlds have a higher degree of sameness. Less detail, more bland, but more easily dealt with by the average player.

IFP: still a main factor in making MOO3 a 5X game. Welcome back to 4X, especially in combination with some of the other things. Those who love micromanagement will be ecstatic; those who hate it lose one thing that would've set MOO3 apart from any other similar game. It does take a lot of pressure off the AI, though.
At this point, while there are a few improvements, I also see a creeping blandness in the gameplay. I've got no guarantee that my tastes match anyone else's, so I'm sure opinions will vary.

I am simply smashed about this. Deleting IFPs basically ruins the game for me. Of all the innovations, this one clearly was the most important. An ingenious way to reduce micromanagament AND increase realism.

All the other changes go into a similar direction: To make the game more 'mainstream' and less interesting -CivIII Plague strikes again!

To end on a positive tone: You, Stormhound, are sure the most sincere game developer in history, admitting all those things above. And that at least is to the credit of QS as well: At Firaxis they would chop the head off any developer telling the truth so bluntly!

Edit: I just read on another thread you DID get axed, or something. And they showed the door to Alan Emrich, too. Have they gone mad?

[Stormhound]

Yeah, but those comments also got posted after I got laid off by QS...so it's not like I was risking my job.

To be truly honest, I probably wouldn't have posted a critique while still employed; on the other hand, I wouldn't have rushed to defend any changes I didn't like, either. I find that conspicuous silence can do an admirable job of expressing my opinion at times...just as it's going to do for the remaining months until the game's release, since my recent "friendly call" from IG.

[ChaotikVisions]

hmm

The more and more I hear about MOO3 to more it sounds like it isn't going to be that great. First they take out tactical combat(one of my favorite parts of the game), now all this. I never played MOO2 envisioning myself as some grand galactic leader with somewhat control over his empire. I played it as everyone running the empire, albeit all focused on a single purpose. I'll probably just stick to playing Civ3, even though it isn't on a grand a scale as MOO3, its still fun. (and better since the latest patch, too) I never understand why companies rush games or dumb them down alot for people, its just going to hurt who was planning on buying them in the first place. Rather then appeal to new audiences or make them more money.

[Sarxis]

No tactical combat??!?!

What is going to replace it? Strategic/automatic? RUBBISHAH!!


FWA-kaka!

[Xentax]

Re: hmm

Originally posted by ChaotikVisions
First they take out tactical combat(one of my favorite parts of the game)

Uh, tactical combat is still very much IN moo3, albeit real-time instead of turn-based. On a related note, I'm one of the people all FOR real-time vs. turn based, since it makes things like formations useful, allows the number of ships on each side to be considerably higher, and just feels more realistic.