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  • Announced feature cuts

    I'm going to quote here a message posted by Alan this afternoon on the MOO3 Forum. This is for informational purposes, and I do not promise to be able to give more details or answer speculative questions.

    ================================================

    From: Alan Emrich (ALANEMRICH) 1:01 pm To: ALL (1 of 21) 4619.1

    "The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things..." Among them, feature cuts in MOO3.

    First, these feature cuts are necessary due to time and budget considerations. We've got the design, art, and engineering know-how to pull all this stuff off, but looking at the last 6 months of the schedule, it's time to make hard decisions so that the finish line is crossed with the best possible game within the rational time and money constraints of publishing computer games. That's simply the world we live in, people, and you can rail against economic realities all you want (but please don't do so on this thread; it won't help).

    Second, all of this stuff, as designed, is being archived and put on to our "MOO4 List." Yes, we're optimists here and hope to revisit this franchise and do more with it in the future. (No, there is no deal, hand-shake, promise, hint, or even a wink from Infogrames to suggest this will happen; like I said, we're just optimists and hope we and this game do so well that it simply makes sense to do a MOO4 or expansion for MOO3 or something where we can get "another crack at it.") Now, everything going into MOO3 is being written into the design doc and coded into the game with "hooks" for this stuff to be included in the future with the greatest possible aplomb, but for now the verdict is in -- this stuff is being cut for MOO3.

    Finally, this may not be the last round of cuts. Having been in this industry a long time, I'd bet anything that it isn't. That said, because we really strove to reach way beyond the genre conventions, even by falling short a few features, I still believe that we'll be delivering a genre-redefiining game that will kick some serious butt. So, remember all that's in the game, and look forward to all the rest if we get to do some future release in the MOO line.

    Without further delay then (nor the specifics reasons behind each individual decision -- basically, these features promised to be the most engineering/playtesting intense so they became the most natural targets), here is the "cut list" to date:

    1. The Annals of Space and Time (i.e., the "end game story review" of a civilizations adventures in MOO3)

    2. The entire Ethos system

    3. Team victory conditions (i.e., Factions and Unity)

    Alan Emrich, MOO3 designer
    Quicksilver Software, Inc.
    The value of a good thing is to have done it.
    If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

    Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

  • #2
    Sorry to sound like a newbie (I am with MOO even though I'm really looking forward to the game, Moo2 is too old for me to play and the recent space Civs tempt me, but fall flat in the end)

    What is the Ethos system?

    I've read the entire Moo3 website, cover to cover, but as it hasn't been updated recently, it was a long time ago and am too lazy to hunt through the encyclopedia that is moo3.com (which by the way is one kick a$s site )

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    • #3


      That should contain the information you're looking for.
      If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

      Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

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      • #4
        Oh well...

        Well I can't say I am happy that anything is being cut I can say that there seems to be a lot of good stuff still left in the game.


        I do have a few questions however...


        1) Were the Annals of Space & time going to be like a Civ review of which race settled each system, wars, etc, or some more indepth journal like entry recording all the major things each Race did?

        2) I can see where the Ethos system would have enhanced the game immensely, but I can't say that I will miss it much because it always gave me a headache when trying to read about it and understand it.

        3) Hmm, even though team winning conditions would have been great, they won't be missed as much as if the game shipped without PBEM, hotseat or multi-player added in. If the rumor I have heard about Civ3 not having MP is true then I probably won't buy that game, even though I played the original and it's sequal for over 2 years together.

        Finally I'd just like to say thanks to Stormhound for posting here (Delphi forums are very convoluted!) and thanks to Alan and the rest of the QS team for their hard work on the game thus far and into the future. I remember buying MOO way back when and having fun but not truly enjoying the game until the "MOO bible" came out. I wish all strat guides were written as well, unfortunately only the "bible" and "Rome on 640k a day" were worth the paper they were written on.

        Thanks again folks I look forward to seeing how well all this work ties together and I am catching up on my sleep now because I have a feeling I will need it once the game ships.

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        • #5
          I believe it was going to be somewhat in-depth; I can't say how much so because I never really had anything to do with designing it, nor do I recall many discussions. I think it was one of those "it'll be nice if we have time to" things.

          And you're welcome; we're trying to make an extra effort to stay in touch with the fans, and so far it has paid off quite well.
          If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

          Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Oh well...

            Originally posted by Ozymandous
            2) I can see where the Ethos system would have enhanced the game immensely, but I can't say that I will miss it much because it always gave me a headache when trying to read about it and understand it.
            Hey Ozy, can you include a link to the Moo3.com or preview description of Ethos?


            Oh yeah, and Stormhound. Thanks a lot for everything posting hear as often as you do. Thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Stormhound,

              Am I disappointed ethos is out? You bet you.

              But what is the best about this is that I was told about it. I didn't have to find out about it in some silly email. I appreciate what you guys are doing, thanks!
              About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. With a simple click daily at the Hunger Site you can provide food for those who need it.

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              • #8
                What? No team victory?!? What's next? No hot-seat?

                Because that's just what is left for me to keep playing MoO2! I still play hot-seat games with 2 friends on a regular basis, and we don't attack each other like gentlemen! We win by going to Antares!
                This is much funnyer because we can explore the game's awsome technology, kick AI's butt, and we end the game still being friends, not hating each other with backstabbings!

                I really have a huge hope that there is a way to win without having to kill every race, in MoO3!
                "BANANA POWAAAAH!!! (exclamation Zopperoni style)" - Mercator, in the OT 'What fruit are you?' thread
                Join the Civ2 Democratic Game! We have a banana option in every poll just for you to vote for!
                Many thanks to Zealot for wasting his time on the jobs section at Gamasutra - MarkG in the article SMAC2 IN FULL 3D? http://apolyton.net/misc/
                Always thought settlers looked like Viking helmets. Took me a while to spot they were supposed to be wagons. - The pirate about Settlers in Civ 1

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                • #9
                  It's been openly told to anyone who asked for more than a year now that there is NO hot-seat in MOO3; all multiplayer is going to be simultaneous (LAN/Net). Sorry if you're just now hearing that, but it's long since decided.

                  So far as "a way to win without having to kill every race", let me put it to you this way: it will be extremely difficult and time consuming TO win by that means. There are a number of features of the game which mitigate against it, not least something called the HFOG (Heavy Foot Of Government), which simulates the increasing bureaucracy and inefficiency of larger empires. We're actually working very hard to make it feasible to win without having to go on an expansionist rampage every time. War itself will be quite expensive, meaning that you'd better have a good reason for waging it and a good economy behind you, or you'll hurt yourself as badly as your enemy.

                  Kill EVERY race? Heck, wiping out ONE will be an accomplishment. So you may rest quite safely assured that there is a variety of other ways to win.
                  If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

                  Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hmmm, previously how your underlings acted unless you used IFPs to smack em into line was determined by their ethos, I assume now that it'll be determined by their race? If so, will we get situations like "I don't want to play those goddam klackons, all my AI underlings want to do is build mines and I have to sink most of my IFP into changing this, I'll play the humans since the AI makes more balanced building decisions."
                    Stop Quoting Ben

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                    • #11
                      Too bad the vision and the work that has gone into both MoO3 and Civ3 hasn't been instilled in the publisher - Infogrames. . .

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                      • #12
                        Thanks, sorry I just passed right over the earlier link without noticing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Oh well...

                          Originally posted by SerapisIV


                          Hey Ozy, can you include a link to the Moo3.com or preview description of Ethos?

                          Here you go (copied and pasted from where Stormhound posted it earlier in the thread):



                          It's very indepth so you'll need to read all of the links to get an idea. Great concept but enough meat to that topic to almost be a game itself.

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                          • #14
                            There was always lots more than just ethos going into deciding how underlings act; there still is.

                            To be fair to Infogrames, Alan's design was the most ambitious thing I've ever seen, and I think that he was also designing with hopes of the franchise seeing a 4th game, eventually. All of the cut material is being saved, just in case. Infogrames still has to end up making enough money on this thing, or else there WON'T be a MOO4 (nor, quite possibly, a MOM2). So there is very little here that can be addressed without consideration of all sides.
                            If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

                            Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Announced feature cuts

                              Originally posted by Stormhound
                              1. The Annals of Space and Time (i.e., the "end game story review" of a civilizations adventures in MOO3)

                              2. The entire Ethos system

                              3. Team victory conditions (i.e., Factions and Unity)
                              - I have no experience with TBS Games in space, but having looked at the website (which, by the way is excellent and well updated ) MOO3 certainly does get me very excited. It has promise to be truly an excellent game.

                              - Those cuts don't worry me at all. In fact, I am happy that having to do a cut, you chose to cut on features that I rate among the least important. Obviously, though, if more cuts do follow, as you say is likely, it could have a more negative impact (depending on what is cut).

                              - I applaud your openness with information, something most other developers should strive to emulate.

                              - What is MOM2 ????
                              Rome rules

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