Orion 2 clone game

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Brutalisk
Anyway, I can see that you don't like that idea, not much point dragging this on. I do like the 3 way battle though. (what's the maximum "x-way" battle you can have?)

Arrgh. The multi-fleet battles are giving me headaches! The starting positions need to be improved.

Technically you could have all 13 races with Pacts orbiting peacefully at an uncolonized system.

When one of them suddenly colonizes it, then they all have to leave or fight. So you could have a 13 race battle...

That's the kind of headache I'm talking about.

[Brutalisk]

Just a thought on that.

You have 13 races.
Each with potentially 6 ship types to accomodate.
Each race should then have 3 (columns) x 2 (rows)
The battle area can be enlarged depending on how many races are involved in battle. Each race numbered (0-12), where race #0 is the HOME race (or if there is no home race race #0 is the ATTACKING race)

The races can be distributed in the following setup:



You might have to decrease the square sizes to be able to accomodate or settle for a scrollbar

[Zoetrope]

Originally posted by Shadowlord
I liked (part of) how Alpha Centauri handled designing units. Well, not necessarily how you could have a hundred or so designs at once. That got unwieldy,

Not the number of designs, but the linear listing, combined with the lack of a place marker, made the design handling unwieldy.

So here's a suggestion for RFR: When a design is marked obsolete, the player has the choice of scrapping the ships or keeping them. So long as ships exist for an obsolete design, the game would remember the design. However, obsolete designs wouldn't be shown on the ship-design screen - in fact that would stay the same as it is now. The only real visual change would be that the fleet view would show a 7th column for obsolete ships in addition to the six columns for existing ships.

Space Empires 3 and 4 have that feature.

Aside: personally I much preferred SE3 to its successor: ministers did something (and usually the right thing), and multiple orbital spaceyards were great!

[Zoetrope]

Originally posted by Ray K
Actually, the problem with not scrapping obsolete ships is that it opens the game up for an exploit. For example, you could create 6 designs, build a ton of ships, scrap the designs and start 6 new designs. Rinse and repeat.

What's wrong with that?

Then you can enter combat with 12, 18 or however many stacks of ships you want and break the balance in combat.

Then allow only six stacks in combat! (But let the player choose them, or designate the preferred stacks for combat.)

[Zoetrope]

Originally posted by Ray K
Technically you could have all 13 races with Pacts orbiting peacefully at an uncolonized system.

When one of them suddenly colonizes it, then they all have to leave or fight. So you could have a 13 race battle...

That's the kind of headache I'm talking about.

Why must they fight or leave? Why can't they remain orbiting peacefully?

"News flash! New settlement near US border compels war with Mexico! Local sheriff says only alternative was to pack up and leave Texas to the crows."

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Zoetrope


Why must they fight or leave? Why can't they remain orbiting peacefully?

Because non-aggression pacts do not allow alien fleets to orbit your colony. If you want to allow that, that's what alliances are for.

[User137]

Surely you allow fleet in war remain in orbit without it needing to attack colony or be sent away? They would only be blocking freighter passage to colonies. They don't have any pacts in war.

This thing is simpler in moo2 and my version.. they can always orbit.

[vmxa1]

Ray stick to Moo1 play until you have a finished product. Then if you want and other prefer, you could try to implement changes.

To me the value of your product is that it frees me from concerns about future OS and hardware issue that exist in Moo1.

I also prefer the 6 design and no upgrade, that is how Moo1 is and as you said, it forces you to plan a bit. You do not want to keep making lots of those large ships and end up with a huge investment that is obsolete. Better to make around 10 and then make a new design, even if nothing is changed. Just so you can scrap a deign without killing your power.

If you remove the exploit of being able to retreat back to the same planet, then maybe you need to allow orbit for non combatants. The game does not allow you to orbit now you have to fight or retreat, but you can retreat in place so to speak.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Zoetrope

Aside: personally I much preferred SE3 to its successor: ministers did something (and usually the right thing), and multiple orbital spaceyards were great!

The obsolete design in SE is the same as Moo2, except that in Moo2 you cannot view the old designs in production view or design view. You would have to find the ship and look at it and could not build them any longer.

In SE the design is viewable and has a toggle to keep it in the list or not.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by User137
Surely you allow fleet in war remain in orbit without it needing to attack colony or be sent away?

Absolutely! However, they would be considered a hostile force and the entry of any unfriendly fleet would trigger combat.

If they want to stay in orbit around a hostile planet, they have to militarily control the space.

They would only be blocking freighter passage to colonies. They don't have any pacts in war.

We weren't talking about fleets that were at war. However, signing a pact with a race does not allow them to park a fleet of ships at your colony, whether you are at peace or not. Alien ships orbiting a colony is an inherently aggressive position unless there is an alliance.

This thing is simpler in moo2 and my version.. they can always orbit.

Unless, of course, another fleet forces them to retreat.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Ray stick to Moo1 play until you have a finished product. Then if you want and other prefer, you could try to implement changes.

MOO1 is certainly the inspiration for the game, but it is definitely no longer a MOO1 clone. However, I think that the differences are understandable and within the spirit of MOO1 gameplay.

To me the value of your product is that it frees me from concerns about future OS and hardware issue that exist in Moo1.

Hopefully it will be fun as well.

If you remove the exploit of being able to retreat back to the same planet, then maybe you need to allow orbit for non combatants. The game does not allow you to orbit now you have to fight or retreat, but you can retreat in place so to speak.

The exploit was removed because it was an exploit that placed the AI at a disadvantage (since the AI played by the rules). That is only reason I needed. However, non-combatants (unarmed ships) ARE allowed to orbit planets in Rise From Ruin. For example, if you and the Bulrathi do not have a pact or an alliance, your unarmed scouts can still orbit the same system at least until a fighter arrives. This, by the way, fixes another exploit in MOO1 where you could use your scouts to scare away the AI scouts.

There are quite a few exploits fixed in RFR, including the "scrap a large ship in production to build an instant fleet of high-tech medium ships" exploit.

Also, players do not automatically get the last vote in the Council meetings. You cannot contest the election if you voted for the race that won. You don't get any diplomatic bonuses simply for being the player. You can't find out who the other races are at the beginning of the game by looking at the galaxy map. The AIs are no longer handicapped by erratic rulers that randomly declare war for no reason.

Oh yeah... the AI absolutely and positively DOES NOT CHEAT. No map cheats, no diplomacy cheats, no research cheats, no production cheats, nothing.

That's the goal. We'll see how sucky it turns out to be in the end.

[User137]

That's my goal too. Impossible AI doesn't mean he gets twice more race pick points to make game unfair. It should play harder with all that player has too. Micromanage every smallest detail to keep empire optimal...

[vmxa1]

I submit that having the ability to see who is in the game from the map is useful and does not impact the game. Ok, a tad, but for long time players, you may want to see or not a certain race in the current game for personal or any reason.

So you see that race and start a new game or not see the race you want and start a new game.

I don't care about the other stuff one way or another. Well I may end up missing the final war option to stop contacts.

Exploits do not matter t ome either or AI cheats. You get to know them and work around them or use them, your choice. If it had MP play, then it matters.

I do not mind CivIII giving the AI a ton of stuff at sid level. So long as you know what they get, you accept it or don't play.

As for fun, no one plays any games that are not fun, sorry Moo3.

[Shadowlord]

Of course now in RFR the AI regularly scares away my unarmed scouts with his armed ones (since, early on, I can't fit both a laser and reserve fuel tanks onto the smallest ship class). :P

[siron]

I almost completely agree with Brutal here.


Nice ideas user137.
@AI: You should work on MP first. Most considerations with respect to your AI (esp. strategy) are a complete waste of time at this stage. You should play dozens of MP-Games first....then you have the feeling for the equilibrium paths of several races.