Modifiying MOO2 with OCL & CORION

[Torinloknar]

I've been playing MOO2 since it first came out; its a great game but it has some serious flaws.

I've known about and used corion for years but last week I found the OCL editor and let me tell you its a godsend! I've played a little bit with some modifications I have made and here are my thoughts. I am interested on what others think about using these editors to add more life to the game as well.

IMO here are the flaws of MOO2 (along with what I have done to counter them):

1. AI (like everyone else = boost the races with corion; also - some of the mods that follow serve to help the AI).

2. The weakness of planetary defenses. (boosted star bases, battlestations and star fortresses by 400% - space, structure, marines, armor, etc...; decreased production costs of most defensive planetary items by 1/2)

3. Beam weapons are too powerful in the mid-late stages of the game. (deleted structural analyzer, hi energy focus and the achilles targeting computer; decreased the size requirement of fighters/bombers/hvy fighters; increased size of stellar converter to 900) I think this aids the AI as well since human players are more effective using these.

4. Tech research is too fast. (increased the research costs of higher techs by 200-500%)

5. Cheap game exploits/tactics. (deleted death rays, neutron blasters and time warp facilitator). Same as #3 about helping AI. To fully delete the possibility of someone getting death rays from captured Antarans you have to play with antarans off.

6. Too many planets to manage and balance of available planets not even (used corion to modify all systems to have 1 huge planet; also - no toxic or poor planets). I've been doing this for years in multiplayer games with my brother and it works wonders for speeding up the game (less colonies to manage) and allowing for equal starting conditions for all players. I'd rather play on a huge galaxy with 70 planets than a small one with 70 planets - the spread/geography is much more interesting.

7. Point defense and heavy mount are not encouraged enough. (decreased hvy mod to +50% space). This encourages using hvy mods over regular which in turn makes having point defense (or point defense specialists ships) more important.

8. Game is too heavily favored towards just building largest possible ships. (each doubling in ship space = tripling of cost making smaller ships much more efficient). I don't know how to modify the upkeep cost of ships so I figure this is the next best thing. The AI picks up on this and builds smaller ships more often than before.

9. Shields are too weak. (made the size requirement for hard shields, shield capicitor and multiphased shields = ZERO; in effect they are almost automatic shield upgrades).

10. Suffering thru the anti-missile rocket animation (deleted anti-missile rockets; make some point defense lasers for god's sake!).

Some misc changes I made with OCL =
-deleted battle pods and increased ship space by 50% (so you can use more specials instead of wasting a space on battle pods)
-added xenotronium armor, spatial compressor, quantum detonator and particle beams to research trees. I don't like reflection field and damper field (they diminish regular shields to much IMO) so I left them out of the research tree.

Here are the races I usually play against-
Klackons = +2 prod, +2 food, subterranean

Silicoid = tolerant, lithovore

Gnolam = +1 BC, fant trader, lucky, charisma

Mrrshan = +50 offense/defense, +20 ground troops,
warlord, stealth ships, trans dimensional

Psilon = +4 research, telepathic, omniscient, +20 spying

Meklar = +1 prod, +2 research, cybernetic

All have democracy and creative; I think the morale effect of democracy makes it stronger than unification. I was using unification but switched over to democracy after re-reading the manual about morale.

[vmxa1]

Lots of good ideas. One thing about Demo vs Uni is the spy cost. Demo takes a hit and Uni get a boost.

The morale part is a double edge sword. You have to have creative to get the most of them and then you have to build them.

No question that once you have them built, they are a big boost.

[P-K]

Re: Modifiying MOO2 with OCL & CORION

Originally posted by Torinloknar

"I've been playing MOO2 since it first came out; its a great game but it has some serious flaws."

Great! Can you join us on kali online games? Online moo is much better then home one

"I've known about and used corion for years but last week I found the OCL editor and let me tell you its a godsend! I've played a little bit with some modifications I have made and here are my thoughts. I am interested on what others think about using these editors to add more life to the game as well."

Corion is good but it has limits too. Other good planet editor is mapleveller. Its more efficient.

"IMO here are the flaws of MOO2 (along with what I have done to counter them):
1. AI (like everyone else = boost the races with corion; also - some of the mods that follow serve to help the AI)."

Ok i understand normal AI is no longer a serious enemy for a good player, but why to play AI while you can play humans :P

"2. The weakness of planetary defenses. (boosted star bases, battlestations and star fortresses by 400% - space, structure, marines, armor, etc...; decreased production costs of most defensive planetary items by 1/2)"

Imagine a creative and non cre player. Second guy must attack. Creative defences are already very strong, if you make it 4 times more powerfull then noone will pass them!

"3. Beam weapons are too powerful in the mid-late stages of the game. (deleted structural analyzer, hi energy focus and the achilles targeting computer; decreased the size requirement of fighters/bombers/hvy fighters; increased size of stellar converter to 900) I think this aids the AI as well since human players are more effective using these."

Achilles unit is very far away in tech. I never had it in my games really. Structural analyzer isnt worth the choice. Emg is more important. Steallar converter is usless against late tech ships, so are fighters.

"4. Tech research is too fast. (increased the research costs of higher techs by 200-500%)"

Good idea but arent they bit too large values?

"5. Cheap game exploits/tactics. (deleted death rays, neutron blasters and time warp facilitator). Same as #3 about helping AI. To fully delete the possibility of someone getting death rays from captured Antarans you have to play with antarans off."

Nblasters are avarge weapon and i dont see any exploit here.

"6. Too many planets to manage and balance of available planets not even (used corion to modify all systems to have 1 huge planet; also - no toxic or poor planets). I've been doing this for years in multiplayer games with my brother and it works wonders for speeding up the game (less colonies to manage) and allowing for equal starting conditions for all players. I'd rather play on a huge galaxy with 70 planets than a small one with 70 planets - the spread/geography is much more interesting."

I also create mirror maps or balanced ones. But to put 1 planet at every system? If you dont line to manage too many planets play large map without whs or a medium one. Huge is awalys a long game. Having only 1 planet per systems kills much fun from the real map i think.

"7. Point defense and heavy mount are not encouraged enough. (decreased hvy mod to +50% space). This encourages using hvy mods over regular which in turn makes having point defense (or point defense specialists ships) more important."

There is a great balance between these mods. I find it really reasonable to use as they were created. Making heavy mod cheaper will only make beam ships more powerfull since this mod is only right one for late tech wars.

"8. Game is too heavily favored towards just building largest possible ships. (each doubling in ship space = tripling of cost making smaller ships much more efficient). I don't know how to modify the upkeep cost of ships so I figure this is the next best thing. The AI picks up on this and builds smaller ships more often than before."

Its true. But its also has some sense in it. Managing a huge number of dds is harder and makes battle much longer.

"9. Shields are too weak. (made the size requirement for hard shields, shield capicitor and multiphased shields = ZERO; in effect they are almost automatic shield upgrades)."

If you modify shields they ll become very powerfull so beam ships wont be effective in any stage of game.

"10. Suffering thru the anti-missile rocket animation (deleted anti-missile rockets; make some point defense lasers for god's sake!)."

Who has antimissles? Only creative player! Its fair reward for 8 points spent on race picks.

"Some misc changes I made with OCL =
-deleted battle pods and increased ship space by 50% (so you can use more specials instead of wasting a space on battle pods)
-added xenotronium armor, spatial compressor, quantum detonator and particle beams to research trees. I don't like reflection field and damper field (they diminish regular shields to much IMO) so I left them out of the research tree."

Deleting battlepods will create more space on ships. This can lead to situation when an antimatter bb with aug engines and 4 tractors will raid you before you even move!
And raiding is very deadly.

I know that u did all those modifications to make AIs more powerfull. My comments are more for human vs human game. I hope u ll understand me.

PK

[GePap]

On large ships thought, while I like the notion of more small ships, I do think that large ships should not be ignored either.

I am wondering if one gets the right bang for the buck out of large ships.

If I understand scales corretly, one single doom star should be hard for many ships smaller than BB to handle.

[Torinloknar]

PK, I should have clarified more what type of game I was modding the rules for; however on some of the issues you point out I totally disagree with you.

I am trying to create a game that I can play against my bro and 6 AIs over a LAN that will last a LONG time (no rushes!); I want an epic game where it takes long to get every tech - forcing you to focus on particular techs rather than getting them all early on in the game. That is the primary reason behind beefing up the defenses and research costs. I want long wars in the mid stages of the game where different empires are using different techs. Usually when we play we (the human players) end up researching every tech and pitting our uber ships against each other and the AI; the techs seem to come too fast. I have never liked playing without creative; I much prefer being able to research all of the techs but it taking a much longer time.

I disagree with you about improving star bases, deleting neutron blasters, deleting struc analyzer, deleting achilles targeting comp, increasing the size of stellar converters, and improving shields. About anti-missile rockets - the animation for these is really slow in tactical combat so thats why I got rid of them; I don't think they are a game breaking tech and I could not stand watching the AI use these things on every ship in combat LOL

Star bases and planetary defenses in general are way too underpowered in the mid-late game. In the beginning they are effectve but this does not last. Remember that I am trying to prevent against early rushes and prolong the game. You can only build one starbase per system and they stay put. You can build as many ships as you want (almost) and they move around the map. x4 might be a bit much but so far it is accomplishing what I wanted - no early rushes (the AI knows the star base is x4 apparently) and very effective planetary defenses. You really do have to get quite a fleet going (several battleships) to overpower a star base of equivalent tech - but to me this is how attacking a planet should be. Remember that you can still blockade with the lowly scout ship you start out with and this can cripple a system if done for a long time.

Neutron blasters can be used in combination with tractor beams/assault shuttles/transporters to eliminate enemy marines and take a ship over in 1 shot/turn; this is too easy IMO and also puts the AI at a disadvantage because it does not always utilize this tactic while human players will. This tactic is really nasty when you consider that not only is it an efficient way of eliminating enemy ships but that you can get either enemy techs/money or add the ships to your own fleet. Taking over a ship should occur when you overpower it with superior forces/numbers and it should be a challenge (and much more difficult then simply destroying) to capture a ship.

The struc analyzer doubles all damage that passes thru the shield. Way too powerful IMO.

The achilles targeting comp is a late tech but it bypasses armor, increases to hit +300% and increases the chance to hit ship systems. Again way too powerful IMO. What I have experienced is that with hi-energey focus, hyper x caps, struc analyzer and achilles you can destroy several equivalent ships in 1 turn with 1 ship. This is too much firepower IMO. If you take these specials along with a high initiative you can have battles where the forces are almost equal in strength but where one gets to shoot first and eliminates the other before it ever has a chance to even fire back.

Stellar converters are the BEST weapons to use against planetary defenses. They usually almost completely destory all planetary defenses in one shot. They may not be the most effective ship-ship weapon but it is always smart to have at least one when you attack a planet. At 500 space they are actually pretty effective ship-ship weapons for larger ships; remember they always hit and are enveloping.

Even with what I have done with shields (no space requirement for mp shields, hard shields, and shield caps) I still feel that they are underpowered in the late game stages. Shields are normally effective in the early games, so-so in the mid game and almost inconsequential in the late game. And in the early game you will not have mp shields, hard shield, shield caps. So far I think this change has worked out well.

[Zoetrope]

Don't forget the MPot (Melting Pot) editor. With this you can control which techs each race can research, to give them even more individual flavor. For example, if only the Bulrathi can research improved ground combat techs, their strengths will be accentuated.

I suspect that it might be possible to use OCL to duplicate techs, then use MeltPot to assign each race a tech tree with different Research Points for each tech. So maybe all races can get Powered Armor, but the Bulrathi research it much sooner. This makes more sense to me, as each race should have superior research skills in their specializations.

[P-K]

Originally posted by Torinloknar

"I am trying to create a game that I can play against my bro and 6 AIs over a LAN that will last a LONG time (no rushes!); I want an epic game where it takes long to get every tech - forcing you to focus on particular techs rather than getting them all early on in the game. That is the primary reason behind beefing up the defenses and research costs. I want long wars in the mid stages of the game where different empires are using different techs. Usually when we play we (the human players) end up researching every tech and pitting our uber ships against each other and the AI; the techs seem to come too fast. I have never liked playing without creative; I much prefer being able to research all of the techs but it taking a much longer time."

Well. Not i see more clearly your goal. And i bet your home games with AIs and brother are far different from usual mp online game. But some laws are still the same:
If we have 2 creative human players in game, their tech paths and growth will be almoust the same as well as their defences and fleets. Creative defences are very powerfull even to creative attacker. Its hell more easier to defend in such a position then invade. By the time of warp interdictor attacks will be a suicide! I can imagine 2 big human empires in the end of game hiding after thier super defences. Remeber that every sb or higher base adds attack to defensor fleet. So his ships move as first. I can estimate that will be only 1 huge fight in very late stadium of game. And late stadium of game is a raiding war. Pure war of tractor and emg ships. No beams or other bla bla bla will survive! Actually it last only for ONE or two turns! Quick mass kill and thats it. No mr beamer, torp etc! Guy who gets initiative wins. And defender will get it for sure since the planetary defences are build.

"I disagree with you about improving star bases, deleting neutron blasters, deleting struc analyzer, deleting achilles targeting comp, increasing the size of stellar converters, and improving shields. About anti-missile rockets - the animation for these is really slow in tactical combat so thats why I got rid of them; I don't think they are a game breaking tech and I could not stand watching the AI use these things on every ship in combat LOL"

My animations are fast, wierd thing urs are not. As i said above improving defences will only make game a passive/defence wait in later stadium of game. Of course u ll be able to eat AIs but finally they ll be gone.

"Star bases and planetary defenses in general are way too underpowered in the mid-late game. In the beginning they are effectve but this does not last. Remember that I am trying to prevent against early rushes and prolong the game. "

There are no rushes when 2 slow cre players are in game. Cre is not a rush pick!

I ll write later today someptin more. Must go now ...

PK

[cmdrcain]

Nice sounding editors, where might they be at?

[Zoetrope]

OCL, CORION2 and other editors are at the zoetrope website:

ftp://ftp.sff.net/pub/people/zoetrope/MOO2/Utilities/