Pre-thread for polls about options

[Whoha]

just how helpful are class 3 shields? I haven't noticed stellar preformance from them, but perhaps I haven't played against the right people.

It seems that inertial stablizers and ecm jammers would be better then the shield at blocking damage due to the weapons missing then the shield could block.

I have done the creative/sub/LRA HW/ game, but that depends on you not starting next to a zenophobe more then anything else(which is the same as doing the all negative picks game), also I'd bet that demo/sub/LRA HW would be better suited to the challenge since you get 145% research. You just need to trade for a good computer for your ships and perhaps megafluxers.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Whoha
just how helpful are class 3 shields? I haven't noticed stellar preformance from them, but perhaps I haven't played against the right people.

It seems that inertial stablizers and ecm jammers would be better then the shield at blocking damage due to the weapons missing then the shield could block.

Ok, I am not sure where this is going, well actually I am, no where. I never intended to debate the merits of a given tech. For the record, it is not important how good the class III shields are, they are better than no shields, that is all that choice is about. At that point I have no shields at all, that is all I am saying. I could use rad shields, I could use Class III, but can not have both.
You are right, I may well pass the Class III at this point. I was merely saying it is not without confliction. This confliction does not exist for creatives.
As to stellar peformances is it not unheard of to have the shileds be the differnece between a win and a loss.
I have even had the Class I shields stand between a lost ship and a battle won. Some may call that stellar.

[Whoha]

No I mean to ask how effective they are, I never pick them, I'd like to know if im missing out on something that is useful in multiplayer and against the ai.

[vmxa1]

Sorry my mistake. I seem to be getting good at sticking my foot into my mouth.

Here is what they do:

Class III Shield Shp Absorb (15 x size) damage before failing.
-3 enemy attack strength even when failed.
So how useful are they? That depends on what you are up against and what you have to work with.
If the attacker does not have have shield piercing weapons then they will be useful. This is unlikely at the stage that these shields are coming online.
Remember these are used in other than ships as well, if you have the tech.
(Class X size) X 5 = strength of each of the 4 shields.
Size 1 to 6 for small to DS. Class is the shield level.
So a battleship is 60 points of absorbtion. That is a fair amount of damage to stop at this point in the game.
As a tele I have had to use class I shields to allow my ship to take down the star base with out being lost. those few HP were the difference.
I tend to not use ECM as I will normally stay out of range of planetary missile. I mean they get to me, but to slowly. Later when they have better missile and mods, I will come with an overwhelming force.

So I am not sure I can answer the question, but I can provide some information and you can draw your own conclusions. It may be that there are time for either method. That is what is fun, nothing can be right in all occassions.

[vmxa1]

I should have mentioned that 60 is for each shield and you have 4. So if you can turn to present another shields that is not down, you prolong the life of the ship.
I think it is only plasma cannons that hit all 4 shields at once. When they come, you will have much better shields or even dampers. If you have reinforced hulls which most of the non creative races will go for, you have triple structure points. This combined with the shields will stand up to the mass drivers for a lot of rounds. Well not if they came with a bunch of ships. But again at this stage of the game that is not likely.
The main thing in the MP game is that the human player will adapt and the AI wil be very slow. So anything that works in MP, will not work for all that long. In SP, the ai will not be upgrade the ships in any timely fashion.

[Whoha]

its ok, and just did some testing with this hotseat game I have, wow. I could probably start taking over ais much eariler with these.

autofire mass drivers handle missiles very well(as the tests show, 2 class 3 shields AF mass driver battleships took 4 mirv nuke boats), I guess theres a situation where normal is better then heavy.

[vmxa1]

Yup, that is why I like the game. Every now and then you have to stop and reevaluate how you are doing things. Some times a different tech or strat will work better than the one I was using. The situation is only slightly changed, but that may be enough.
That is why some times I want the class I shields and other times (most) I want the driver. If I am a tele, I do not need that driver right now and the shields could be a small edge. If I am missile orientated, shield, if not driver. Same for the Rad vs Class III. Mostly it is Class III, but a game I just played I felt the Rad would pay more right then. I waited for CLass V or steal some shields. No matter which choice I made it cost me a something one way or the other.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Whoha
I guess theres a situation where normal is better then heavy.

This is one I really took to heart in a recent game. It was just as I was saying. Sometime you have to change up.
I use HV mount mass drivers with out a though at that stage of the game. But I saw that I could do better in this one scenario with just normal mounts and have a lot more guns. I move up closer and take down the planet sooner and save some losses. This may not be the right move all the time, what is? I have not used normal mounts since, but you never know.

[Old n Slow]

I think that there are two points of discussion regarding "creative" or not. One is the re-allocation of the 6-8 points among other picks -- so there is a "cost" with the choice of creative. In a similar fashion, by "choosing" to have Mass Driver and +1 shields and later Pl Rad Sh and +3 Shield, it may come at the cost of not having +5 Sh by that time.

The second is the "value" of having the second (and third) best choices from the tech tree. The armor/fuel cell tradeoff for one -- I seem to forever get around to upgrading those later than I'd like (only because everything else seems more urgent.)

By having creative (maybe at the cost of +2 res) I can postpone physics and have the Mass Driver/Gauss Cannon as my major beam weapon & have it upgraded while I also get the better shields -- nice to have when I don't have sufficient firpower to take out the enemy on the first round.

Similar comment for the pollution & missile choices in Chemistry -- I get there late as well.

Of course then the difficulty is also due to the fact that I'm sitting back too much terraforming my corner of the gaxay to perfection -- 10% of the planets & 40% of the population (easier to defend -- but that is also a weakness in this game -- the early offenders seem to have the easier go of it.)

Then of course, there is the fact that some of those "nice" second best techs won't be available when I want them because the ai might not have chosen them either. I like someother folks do have a somewhat greedy side -- in wanting it ALL, I sacrifice having it NOW. (So I tend to choose the all over now.)

But this conversation is all from my very limited experience -- maybe 50 starts & a dozen completions.

[Gilgamensch]

Wrong thread..........

[vmxa1]

Old n Slow I would say that it is not 6-8 picks. It is 8. I say that because if you can get creative for 6 pick you must take it (if you are try for a strong race). You can not spend 6 picks on anything better, since you will have enough left over to get all the key ones.
This is why I do not like 1.2, creative is no longer a hard choice to make, just take it. At 8 picks, all the things you mention come into play at 6, I do not sweat them.
Creative (6), Uni (6) Aqua (5), LHW, RHW is just going to rock. Want those morale booster, drop Uni and LHW and go with Demo.

[Whoha]

you cant pick a tolerant,unification,creative race even with it at 6 points, so I have no problem with the pick there. Nowif it was 4 picks, then there would be a problem.

[Old n Slow]

You’re probably right. Since I’m still on 1.2, I’m probably getting spoiled & developing bad habits of easy play.

Started a hard level game last night, huge space, mineral rich for a change, pre-warp as usual. Something like -- Creative, Sub, Uni, LHW, -.5 Food, -20 Ship def, Repulsive.

By the time I had my 4th system, the Psi showed me their four worlds on the other side of the map (a wormhole away) and the Sak showed me their six systems right next door (and they were repulsive…) 35 turns later I finally (circa turn 165+) moved out against the Saks -- felling very unprepared, under-strong with my mondo fleet -- 2 BB, 1 CA, 2 Scouts (with no guns) & four transports.

Six worlds & 20 turns later, one BB was left, and the six Sak systems had crossed over to my way of thinking. This was the first time I’ve taken a serious look out “early” with the BB having Class III shields & the auto fire MD’s. Amazing how light their defense is at an “early” stage of the game. (I might not go through the finishing activity as it looks like my population is equal to the rest of the ai put together.)

I think that I’ll need a few more games at this stage with this plan to get into a comfortable groove -- then try some different mixes to see the strengths & weaknesses.

[Whoha]

maybe feudal/tol/creative/prod race, or lith instead of tol... hmm I'll have to try that out in a hotseat game.

And thats another thing, in just about every hotseat game I've played to test out stuff(I have creative at 6) the creative guy gets clobbered.

[vmxa1]

Creative is a tough pick in an MP game as you need time and the players will not give it to you.
The other thing in MP is the picks only matter if the players are equally skilled. If one of them better or worse that the rest, the picks will not offset that difference.