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  • the smooth approach

    In reviewing the various strategy threads I see a lot of people focusing on one goal at a time. For example, the "put everything into factories, then put everything into ships" start. I have nowhere near enough experience to say that this is wrong, but I certainly have enough experience to say that other approaches are viable. Personally, I find the game more enjoyable by allowing many streams of activity to flow under my direction rather than muscling my people to accomplish individual discrete goals. For example, my usual starting techs do not include everything I like to have for exploration, so I will never dip research below 20%, and I pick up Stellar Cartography while everything else is getting off the ground. Typically I will throw down around 10% of my starting funds to get that first factory instantly, but in general I like to let things happen at their own pace. I find what gets results for me is to nurture good health across the whole span of my empire, so I may going with a 42% research, 33% social spending, 25% military spending approach, but each of those slices comes out of a much bigger pie because I have not been manhandling my empire into doing everything in discrete serial tasks.

    I really do not know how different approaches to starting stack up, but I do know that 5000 bc is plenty enough reserve to throw down 450-550 bc on day one for a significant boost. If that first factory is on an enhanced yield zone, already a 60M/20S/20R budget is enough to spit out scouts instantly and colony ships in 3-5 turns. Even if you buy several factories outright, producing colony in 1 turn (unless you're on a nerfed skill level) seems like an unrealistic plan with basic technologies. With more than three factories on that initial planet, other aspects of early growth will be neglected. I do agree with widespread complaints about the cost of empty social queues, but I also encounter the problem less perhaps because I am happy to let my larger planets have a stack of pending upgrades most of the time rather than maintaining enough industrial capacity to keep them idle most of the time. More to the point -- and here is where "the smooth approach" begins to constitute a strategy -- I decide what techs to research and what outputs to emphasize based on this plan of all-around sustained yet balanced growth.

    For example, I will try to lead a new level of research facility with discovery of a new level of factory, since my building plans probably are research-heavy and doing the reverse usually leaves me with a backlog of research construction while my factories become more and more out of date. Yet if I notice a particular problem, like an impending economic crash or borders shifting in the wrong direction, I will research the applicable upgrades as soon as possible (and maybe even slide them up their queues if the need is urgent.) Again, the idea is not to do one thing, then another, but to let billions of people do their many countless things and manage the output smoothly. Both which social project upgrades to research and how to balance that kind of research with military and government techs is a response to where my planets are at in a given moment. If queues look short or core worlds are actually idling, then I believe a major upgrade technology should be a high priority. If social queues are cluttered, that may be a time to focus on the next generation of warships or advances in the government/trade/diplomacy sphere. Of course it would be wrong to be a slave to circumstances and always go with the flow, but my intuition tells me that being aware of the flow and working to harness it is more enjoyable if not also more effective than playing strategies based around a "do X, then do Y, then do Z" approach.

    Of course, even perfectionist planners must sometimes adapt to circumstances. Likewise, even completely cold opportunists will benefit from occasionally indulging a personal preference. For example, if you are pursuing vertical expansion (i.e. building a "tall" civilization on a small group of highly developed worlds) and do not enjoy protracted warfare, it may be unwise to build a huge fleet even if you have excess military production capacity or a juicy neighbor looks unable to defend his own turf. On the other hand, if you really relish warfare, having the most productive starbases and best trade routes may not be the right path for you even if astrography and other happenstance make a commercial strategy otherwise ideal. Still, it is entirely possible to pursue coherent goals without breaking down every moment of the game into the pursuit of one discrete goal. Certainly, when war is pending or underway, it makes good sense to ramp up military spending. Yet if the war should not be resolved quickly, completely cutting off tech spending could prove disastrous -- even if the war itself is too bloody for an arms race to develop, other empires are likely to advance while self-imposed tech paralysis lingers. Likewise, there can be no doubt it is crucial to get control of good worlds early in the game. Yet how much more effective is a factory, factory, factory, factory, ship, ship, ship, ship approach than balancing industralization and exploration and research all together in some proportion?

    I guess part of my observation is that, while MOO3 sought to create a "you're the emperor of a vast civilization and you can just cruise through and make leadership decisions along the way" experience, GalCiv 2 nearly succeeds without even trying in this area. The design of ships, nuances of buildings, management of trade routes, et al. make it clear that the game was not afraid to allow micromanagement where there was some fun or at least some mental stimulation involved in diving into available details. Yet it is also possible to go for many turns in a series while doing little more than directing research goals and handling diplomacy with other leaders. Even on a fairly large scale or with a fairly large number of planets, things stay smooth and clutter is manageable where it exists at all. I certainly don't want to discourage people from developing and testing strategies that focus on discrete goals. Yet I do want to encourage people to consider other approaches, where empires are managed with a lighter touch and accomplishing your goals is more about farsightedness than brute force. Somehow, I sense what I'm talking about is more in harmony with the essence of the game, but again I make no promises that it is statistically ideal. It just happens to be more fun for me, it may be more fun for others, and my limited experience does not reveal it as coming up short when compared with the alternative approach.

    Regards,
    Adam Weishaupt

  • #2
    Your approach is very much doable and probably more fun, but it's horribly inefficient. You see I don't have a less balanced empire than you do, I just do things one at a time. So when you spend ten turns doing everything, I spend 5 turns researching then 5 turns building. The difference is that I get the first results 5 turns sooner than you and therefor five more turns of it's advantages. This stacks up. Then we have the fact that ignoring certain things (social and research during colonization, military until you're ready for war, etc) you get added effects to that. This game rewards heavy micromanagement immensly.

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    • #3
      Agree with you Adam in that there is no "wrong" way to play the game. So long as you have fun then play however you want.

      One bit of advice: Stellar Cartography. There really is no reason for you to research it for a couple reasons.
      1) You can easily pick it up in trade with the first AI you meet
      2) It really does nothing to help you anyway. I'm sending my colony ships to all nearby star systems anyway. Knowing how many planets are around the stars doesn't help me much there.

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      • #4
        Stellar does help a little, if you have slow colony ships and no sensors. It tells you where the planets are on the mini-map. That can save you a turn, maybe two. That can mean the difference between colonizing a planet and the other guy colonizing it first.
        Fight chicken abortion! Boycott eggs!

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        • #5
          I have to admit, I have yet to try building custom colony or scout ships until local space is reasonably well-mapped and imperial borders are already in contact. I suppose Stellar Cartography would be less useful if I could spew enough colony and scout ships to visit every star system in my region before my neighbors are mapping their frontiers. As things stand though, being able to tell the difference between a five planet star and a two planet star often makes the difference between my directing a surplus explorer or colony vessel toward the next jewel in my crown or wasting energy checking out an uninhabitable zone. Also, I certainly get that it makes more sense to research tech and then build high tech warships than to build warships before inventing enough hardware to make them useful against any but the weakest rivals. Yet military production is also about colonization and construction and trade vessels. I usually focus exclusively on those while getting the infrastructure and knowledge to make my first generation of combat starships. Even if I wind up with a small stockpile of unused constructors or freighters, there typically will come a time when some use for them emerges. I suppose the "do X, then do Y, then do Z" approach is no less effecient if you work only with budget sliders rather than planetary focus, but I do not really see it as more efficient either.

          Sure, an "all research until I get the right techs and then all military until I have the right fleet" will get you those techs and that fleet asap. Yet, barring an extraordinary scenario, did you ever really stop wanting additional social projects and useful civilian techs? My way might mean research and fleet construction are slower, all other things being equal. Yet all other things will not be equal by mid-game because my planets never completely stop growing. When all is said and done, the step-by-step ruler can focus on social and civilian tech and should be able to catch up with a smoothly-nurtured population/tech level/infrastructure development after putting that war fleet out. Yet it seems like a lot of work just to deploy a fleet early, and unless that fleet is used to make real gains the investment I made in my own people should pay off because it won't just be my 60 turns at 1/3rd social production vs. your 20 turns at full social production (to oversimplify for example purposes) -- midway through the incrementalist's social production has not begun and I am already enjoying the increased industry/research/whatever that emerged from my own planetary development. I suppose what all this means is that the biggest possible gains come from pushing social first and doing military last, though what I like about my approach is not only ease of use but also balance. I never suffer the economic, social, political, or technological setback of going for a year or more without any real funding in those areas, yet if I see the need for a war fleet I have that well-grown population and economy to support the military build-up. All that said, I probably should play around with step-by-step approaches a great deal more before judging them. I can say without fear of dispute that they tend to be less fun for me, but I don't know enough yet to have more than an intuition that, over the long haul rather than focused on one specific crisis in a game, the results are actually better. I'm skeptical of the idea that smooth approaches are significantly worse in a "big picture" rather than single issue context, but it does seem like there is less loss than I imagined was involved with extreme budgetary focus.

          Regards,
          Adam Weishaupt

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          • #6
            > I have to admit, I have yet to try building custom colony or scout ships until local space is reasonably well-mapped

            Oooh not me. If there's a star, I'm sending a colony ship that way. I have to admit, though, it does matter how rare your planets are in the initial settings. I have a lot of fun going abundant habitable planets, since economy starbases spanning 6 planets are a lot of fun.
            Fight chicken abortion! Boycott eggs!

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            • #7
              Adam, nice post.

              I am not from the school of those who play a game 'just to win'. (Yes, I like the Sims )

              For me, it is the journey that is the biggest thing - I am an immersion player who plays to escape the stress of my real life for a few hours.

              Now this does not mean I do not try and maximize the experience - that I do not use strategy, and try to compete - that I do not enjoy intelligently designed mm'ing when there is a valid reason for it (The mm'ing I hate is the tedious useless kind that has no valid gameplay reason for existing - whack-a-mole pollution in civ3 is an example of that kind).

              I guess what I am trying to say is that I like your approach - not that other ways are worse (or better) - to each their own; as long as the game presents challenges to most types of players it is fun.

              I dare say that so far GC2 seems to fit this category - I have not seen such extensive analysis and debate on a TBS game other than the Civ series for a long while - one where both types of players can point to aspects of the game that supports their viewpoint, that arises true passion. I know it is good when I see people arguing vehemently for changes from both sides. It means the game is good enough to rouse real passion and emotion - and that to me shows it is already a success.
              A man's private thought can never be a lie; what he thinks, is to him the truth, always. - Mark Twain, Letter to Louis Pendleton, 8/4/1888

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              • #8
                tetley, by use of the term "custom" I meant "using a non-standard design." I understand there is an edge to be gained by pursuing engine naval technologies from the start and deploying fast non-combat vessels after the first wave of expansion. I usually have no trouble keeping up with my Intelligent neighbors initially, but more often than not I feel flanked later on as it takes so many turns between spotting a good habitat and getting colonists on the ground there. In fact, I was just glancing at my game from last night and I think I'm about to go for a fresh start because I should be dominating a quadrant and instead an ally controls several nice worlds forming a tendril to my side. I believe I'm doing a good job with deployment and pacing, but even retasking a ship already en route to capitalize on an unexpected gaia is sometimes not enough to get the job done. I prefer the thought of faster colony ships to deploying a bigger fleet with more surplus colony ships. Either way though, I know I need to keep pushing back my frontier even after I've gained control of all the desirable worlds in my throneworld's celestial neighborhood.

                Regards,
                Adam Weishaupt

                P.S. I do like oldstatesman's thinking on this. I'm all for debating different styles of play not just in terms of mechanical optimization but in terms of aesthetics and fun. Over time (and with further adjustments via patches) I'm sure rigorous statistical analyses will emerge. Especially considering the nature of this game, I hope along the way we also keep in mind that there is more to the gameplaying experience than puzzling out the quickest and most reliable plans for victory. Analysis of other ways to find fun in a game must have some value to designers, so that they can better align the process of winning with the process of having fun. Galactic Civilizations II is significant enough as an advance over anything else in the genre as to shine great light on where fun harmonizes with skillful play and where optimal play is preventably laborious.
                Last edited by Adam Weishaupt; March 22, 2006, 21:14.

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                • #9
                  To keep it short. I've been using the 'smooth' approach a lot more lately. However, there are a few circumstances where I'm likely to set distribution to 100% in one category. (I do find stellar cartography quite useful depending on the map settings)

                  The first situation is during my scout wave phase. I'll often set 100% social until I get sufficent factories on mars and earth. Then I set 100% military. I now start my colonizing phase at 100% military. After I get a few new colonies settled, I smooth things out with a significant imperial focus on social projects (Mars and Earth have a planetary military focus, however).

                  The second situation is when I (1) absolutely have to cut overall spending (2)cannot or willnot turn it to zero percent for one turn (3)can't do anything useful without distribution set to 100% in one category.

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                  • #10
                    The bummer about arguing vehemently over TBS games is that, in RTS games, you could settle the score very easily. Go onto blizzard.net and settle it. No one listens to an "expert" with a losing record. And anyone who has played online knows just how much of an expert they are not. MP TBS games at this speed just aren't feasible.

                    Anyway, to further clarify my colonization phase: first of all, I tend to like smaller maps with abundant/abundant planets, tight clusters, abundant anomalies. I like building economy starbases that overlap several planets. But a side effect is it influences the colonization phase.

                    On abundant (and especially on abundant clusters), I think it's best to send out colony ships blind. Let the colony ships do the scouting. This works even better if you choose the Sensors racial ability. On abundant, odds are good that any random star will have something to colonize. And even if they don't, on clusters you have good odds of colonizing a nearby star. Every turn you give the AI is a chance for them to colonize first.

                    On abundant stars/rare planets, I still think sending colony ships blind is best, but get stellar cartography first and send them toward the planets.

                    On abundant planets/rare habitable, okay--NOW you need some early scouting. If you're playing abundant anomalies (and I always do), researching sensors and custom-building some fast survey ships does a wonderful job of that.

                    But I always custom-build everything, regardless of the map. The built-in speed-2 colony ships are crap. I'm constantly tweaking life support, engines, and cost (cost is a big one). On Intelligent, I've been winning influence victories off of my initial colonization alone. The AI's wasting his time building these stupid tiny-hulled scout ships.
                    Fight chicken abortion! Boycott eggs!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tetley
                      The bummer about arguing vehemently over TBS games is that, in RTS games, you could settle the score very easily. Go onto blizzard.net and settle it. No one listens to an "expert" with a losing record.
                      Well, they should. How well you do in a RTS isn't very much correlated with your level of understanding of the game. You can know the game very well but just not be so quick with the mouse.

                      I think I can judge how well someone understands a game much better by discussing the game with them than by playing against them.

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                      • #12
                        I'm not sure what it is, but RTS games, despite all the focus and the frenetic creativity just don't immerse me like a great TBS game does, despite the relaxed pace. Odd, eh? I mean Civ 4 and GalCiv 2 are just so much more engrossing and fun. As for the experts, if they're interesting I'm glad to listen. I'm happy to say I'm with Adam and oldstatesman. Good gaming!

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