IDEA: Tech Auctions!

[DaviddesJ]

If there's going to be an essentially automated system for selling techs to other civs, then what's the point of selling them at all? Why not just reduce the price (to reflect the ability to recover part the cost of researching the tech by selling it to others), give a further reduction for researching techs that others know (modeling the ability to buy knowledge from them rather than develop it yourself), and turn off explicit "tech trading" altogether?

[yin26]

In fact, that is precisely why I am running (not walking) to the No Tech Trading option in the next patch.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by yin26
In fact, that is precisely why I am running (not walking) to the No Tech Trading option in the next patch.

I'm worried that it's going to be broken---if you can still get techs by capturing planets, that will be a hugely unbalancing strategy (since everyone who's not doing that has to research all of their techs themselves).

[yin26]

Civ4 just slammed the door shut on that one, so perhaps GalCiv2 should learn from that. Of course, if the AI makes it very hard to take planets, I could see it. This still leaves the minors, of course, as cash and tech cows. To me, though, the bigger problem was tech whoring on a turn-by-turn basis via pumped up diplo.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by yin26
To me, though, the bigger problem was tech whoring on a turn-by-turn basis via pumped up diplo.

It was a bigger problem. But, if the only other way to get techs is to research them yourselves, then the value of extra techs will become much greater, and so the value of getting techs by invasion (already too good) will become an even bigger problem than the old one.

Of course, if the AI makes it very hard to take planets, I could see it.

No chance of that!

[yin26]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
It was a bigger problem. But, if the only other way to get techs is to research them yourselves, then the value of extra techs will become much greater, and so the value of getting techs by invasion (already too good) will become an even bigger problem than the old one.

I would agree except that you have to look at the volume and pace of tech aquisition. If by massive diplo I was gaining NUMEROUS techs in a few turns, then how is getting a tech a planet any worse? I'd say it's a wash, really, with the advantage going to killing of numbing micro. Now, I understand some players like that micro (and the advantage it yields), but it's too much drain for me. That said, I think Brad can do enough with the AI, the interface, etc., to make a lazy gamer like me come back for more.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by yin26

I would agree except that you have to look at the volume and pace of tech aquisition. If by massive diplo I was gaining NUMEROUS techs in a few turns, then how is getting a tech a planet any worse?

It's worse because the AIs can also trade techs among themselves. So, if you're getting an advantage by out-trading them, they are still staying competitive by swapping techs with each other. If you're getting your own techs that you research, plus acquiring techs by targeted invasions (you don't have to hold the planet---indeed, you probably don't even want to), and the AIs can't exploit that singleminded strategy, they are left in the dust with no way to recover.

Wait and see---if this is how it works, then I predict that the ability to pwn the AI will be even greater. At least, it won't be significantly ameliorated, which is supposed to be the point.

[yin26]

Yeah, we'll have to see. From my perspective, the AI wasn't trading aggressively amongst itself anyway. Every time I'd dial up for trades, various AIs were holding on to techs and not trading them, perhaps because of alignment, diplo, whatever. I, meanwhile, could spend turn after turn being the guy brokering (whoring) the tech around. So, for me, No Tech Trading will momentarily stop the bleeding. Let's see if there's a cure.

[Trifna]

Well it shouldn't be possible to trade a tech shortly after getting it by trade. For AI as players.

Simple: You can't just get a guy learn how to do liquid mirrors and then make him sell the idea by the next hour to 400 people in the universe. Doesn't work like that.

It is more simple to not have a limit on how much a given tech is traded by someone, or how much time it takes for it to be available for trade. But to not block such tech whoring can bring imbalances.

As for getting techs by conquering, well what I just say here implies that there's a limit to this. And anyway, you don't just learn the tech by tommorrow morning! The simplest way might just be to get some odds at getting techs but within limits.

[Shadowlord]

I still think it would be better to make tech trades give 90% or so of the research needed for a tech, rather than giving the tech outright.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Trifna

It is more simple to not have a limit on how much a given tech is traded by someone, or how much time it takes for it to be available for trade. But to not block such tech whoring can bring imbalances.

Some of those things might help, but they aren't the source of the current problem. The biggest single factor in the current problem is that the AIs don't understand some basic economic theory. If two different people are competing to sell you something, and their cost of production is zero, then the market value is zero, or extremely small, because each should be willing to undercut the other on price. The AIs pay way too much for non-monopoly techs, and also demand too high a price themselves for those techs. That makes it really easy for the human player to take advantage of their mispricing.

[oldstatesman]

Loks like tech trading is being addresed in the next patch - beta due out this weekend...V1.1 BETA Change-Log (March 24, 2006)

From http://www.galciv2.com/Journals.aspx

+ New Option: No tech Trading. Players can prevent any tech trading by anyone.

+ AI tech trading rewritten so that it doesn't do sweetheart deals. Tech trading somewhat rarer now as a practical matter. May need to be balanced so that human player doesn't get too much of an advantage.