Review-in-Progress (Open Thread)

[yin26]

Sure, 1% is hyperbole. But even if it's 10-20%, it's still too small to be the driving force of hunting down silly abuses. I think the idea of Metaverse to show off simply beating the game at certain levels a certain number of times is one thing. Tying that to score is another mess entirely. Frankly, I'd kill score completely and just show who has beaten the game how many times and at what settings. Perhaps you could also show how long or how many turns this took...NOT as part of a ranking score but just as information for the public to consider when looking at your wins. For example, if I see somebody finishing games in 15 turns, I could assume something gimicky is going on there.

Kill score. Keep raw data. Let the fans figure out the rest.

[EternalSpark]

What GC2 needs is a clear, precise, and understandable economy system.

Clear - This one is obvious. Most people are not understanding the economy system.

Precise - Frogboy admitted that most of the things we're having trouble with were tested by "feel". Mistake! My research bonus is said to be 50%, but I'm really only getting 25%. Civ games have done so well because a player can see the results of his actions - if I build a mine, I will get 3 more hammers. In GC2, this isn't possible.

Understandable - No, paying for social when you're not using it isn't understandable. It makes no sense.

[tetley]

Play-balancing by feel I think is fine, but at the end of the day you have to correctly document your end result.

Are you talking 50% research as in, the +50 research ability? That only gives you +25%?

[EternalSpark]

Are you talking 50% research as in, the +50 research ability? That only gives you +25%?

Yeah.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Sirian

Some things can be fixed (like the bug that I found with the planetary projects) but some things they are just going to have to live with. Futzing around with the tech trading (for instance) at this point is likely to unravel way more than it can fix. You can't apply a bandaid to a bullet wound.

I really agree with most of what Sirian has to say, but I have to disagree pretty strongly that the tech trading in GC2 can't be fixed. If I had to pick one single change from Civ3 to Civ4 that is the most important and successful, it's that they did a much better job in Civ4 of getting tech trading "right". The "rules" of trading are more or less the same between Civ3 and Civ4. (OK, they eliminated "tech for gpt" to eliminate a bunch of problems related to that, and they eliminated tech trading altogether before Alphabet, which certainly improves the early game but is irrelevant in the middle and late game.) What changed is primarily that they did a much better job of "futzing around with" the AI trading algorithms, so that they can't be taken advantage of so easily. There's no reason that that couldn't be done in GC2 also, and it would make (my impression) quite a big difference.

I agree that the Metaverse is inherently problematical, and I hope that updates aren't driven solely by trying to make the Metaverse work, but the appropriate "tweaks" to tech trading are the same whether you're focusing on the Metaverse, or ignoring it, I think.

[MikeH]

Great thread guys.

Ordered this yesterday so should be with me for the weekend. Still have a lot of play to get out of Civ IV so not sure whether I'll install it immediately or not.

[yin26]

Mike: Install it! We need your feedback in this thread.

By the way, the latest GalCiv2 patch says: "AI pickier about what it trades with each other, this should satisfy most people who feel the AI isn’t careful about what it trades with each other and the player"

Let's so how that goes in my next game.

[MikeH]

Looks like it's not shipping 'till Saturday.

[Kinjiru]

Cancel your order Mike. DL directly from Stardock. You'll be playing in a couple hours!

[bonscott]

As mentioned above, the latest patch from Monday did a couple things with tech that should help. Not only did they make it pickier they also made an AI change to concentrate on certain lines of techs and to not be willing to trade military techs so much. This should hopefully see some of the AI's have different weapon specialties instead of nearly all the same. Time will tell and I'm sure Brad will adjust the AI some more. That's teh big thing that comes with the updates as it did in GC1, updated AI to act better.

[Barbazoul]

Hello there ! It's my first post in here.

First of all thank you for this very interesting thread.

I am however shocked by the way some players talk about the game. Because it is just that, a game ; you are supposed to get pleasure out of your gaming experience. It seems to me that some of you arent talking about a game but about a mathematical model of an economic system.

Im sorry, but for me, playing Galciv 2 isnt just knowing that my social production is the square root of my military multiplied by the age of Lord Kona's grandmother ! Id rather judge galciv 2 in terms of gameplay experience ; when i play galciv 2, i want to experiment an immersion in a fictional universe. And i just have to say that it succeeds (at least for me).
Playing on a large map with lots of civilizations, seeing starbases, traders, wars, lots of activity everywhere, communication everywhere, is what i get my pleasure from. I care for my empire, i hate some AIs, i like others, i love seeing my ugly ships roaming around the place...
I think it is very sad if all the pleasure you find in a game comes from analysing the best mathematical procedure to win a game in the shortest possible way.

I agree, it isnt perfect, and most of the flaws come from an obscure economic system. But it doesnt, in my opinion, spoil the game at all. It still succeeds in what a game is supposed to do : immerse you in an universe, in which you evolve and get pleasure doing so.
Because if you think about it, every computer strategy game is the same : mathematics. Eventually, you WILL win every game you play of any given computer strategy game, by analysing the mathematics that rule it underneath. That's why i dont think you can base a review on this aspect of galciv 2. It's worth mentioning for sure, as it can help developing the game further, thus increasing the pleasure gamers can get out of it, but it isn't, for most, the only thing to see when reviewing a game.


PS : Sirian, i tried to register at the Realms Beyond site but never got an email allowing me to validate my registration. Is it normal?
Will you organize events around galciv 2 (like the adventures for CIV) ? I think it could really allow fun games, with those well known Realms Beyond special rules...

PPS : Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

[bonscott]

Barbazoul, nice post and I agree with you totally. I'm just playing the game and enjoying myself. I don't really care if X% of my social production is going to waste or whatnot. I'm just not worrying about it. I ruined GalCiv 1 for myself once I figured out the formula to win on Maso every time with the highest score. Took the entire fun out of the game and I never played it since. I have swore not to do that again with this game and just enjoy it until Elder Scrolls: Oblivion takes over my life.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Barbazoul
Hello there ! It's my first post in here.

Welcome to 'poly.

I am however shocked by the way some players talk about the game. Because it is just that, a game ; you are supposed to get pleasure out of your gaming experience.

While I totally agree with you as regards the philosophy I bring to my gaming experience, there are some who gain enjoyment through thoroughly dissecting the mechanics of a game in order to...

1. maximize their score or...
2. find the perfect way to win or...
3. just because they can.

Like you, I'd rather not know exactly how it works under the hood; I'd rather play and learn through playing what works well for me. Keep the calcs a mystery and I'm happy.

But, to each his own.

PPS : Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

No apology necessary. Your post was clearer than many native english speakers on the internet.

[yin26]

Barbazoul: Nicely put. Your English is great. Of course, I completely understand those, like Sirian, who enjoy picking the game apart and understanding it down to the last detail in order to leverage maximal advantage. It's like the people who enjoy tearing cars apart to the frame. Thank God for those people! Of course, I just want to get in the car, turn on some good music, and have fun without worrying about gear differentials, the play in the suspension, etc. I want to "live" the car and not understand it necessarily.

bonscott: Ah, Oblivion. You and I seem to have similar gaming tastes. I'm really looking forward to that one.

I managed to wrap up my first game this morning before work. I had it on beginner just to play around, so it's unfair to evaluate the AI. I really wanted to focus on the UI, which is pretty good for how much information it presents, but it's still quirky at places. Hey, no big deal. Brad's on it.

I won by culture, and at least in this game, the moment I took over a civ, I got a huge culture boost in my region; by the fall of the second civ, the collective boost was running so high that planets were just ceding to me anyway (much, much more quickly than they ever do in Civ 4). I see this as a blessing and a curse: it meant a super fast end game (again, the AI was set to Sub-Normal, so I take that into account), which I think is great when you're the clear leader. Sirian likes that kind of ending as well (let the game end when it should). On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a victory condition I'll play often if the AI can't handle it.

Well, all of that is not saying much. I need to go for a much harder level and see what happens.

[Gufnork]

I just realized the ultimate anti AI weapon. A ship with maximum engines and a single gun. Place these around your empire and simply destroy any transports that comes your way. Congratulations, you're unbeatable.

yin, what you're talking about is another weakness of the game. The critical mass of influence. Once you've reached a certain amount of influence, it will just keep growing. Planet defection and pop growth are the cause of this. This saves me a lot of cleanup work, once you've hit that mass just make peace with everyone, sit back and watch the victory meter tick to 100%. This is the reason I expect most of my games to end in a cultural victory.