And the logic beind that was..? (Campaign spoilers)

[EternalSpark]

So, I'm two (three?) levels into the campaign, and you're supposed to take a planet.

Of course, the Dread Lords are out in force. So while you're researching Lasers or something, you'll have to contend with 80+ attack damage craft, planetary invasions from 10 soldiers, and pretty much all that entails.

I can see the Dread Lords being active in the later levels, but three levels into it? When we start at Zero Frickin' Tech to begin with?

Admittedly, I should have seen this coming. Looking at the GC2 journal enties, the developers thought that getting ones ass kicked was a positive experience.

[tetley]

I just finished that one, and I hated it. I won it my first go, though (on Normal). I just built custom sensor ships (you know, cargo hull, 14 sector range, twin engines) so I could see 'em coming. And, I built fast fighters with 1 laser to take out the transports. The DL's fortunately don't have the brains to escort their transports to the same square. So just avoid direct confrontation--actually, try to lure them to the Drengin and get them to do that--and sneak your fighters in on the transports. And don't overboard with starbases, unless you want them killed. In the meantime, remember you goal is the home DRENGIN planet--not the DL's one.

It's a ton of micro and I found it painful, but it's doable. Just wait till the next scenario, Achilles' Heel. You have to rely on your allies to win for you. I recommend cranking the difficulty UP and not down for that one.

[EternalSpark]

I recommend cranking the difficulty UP and not down for that one.

Damn. Oh well, thank God the games so moddable, I can correct the overbalance of the DLs in the early campaign.

[tetley]

Just to clarify, it's the NEXT mission I think you should crank up the diff. The SECOND one where the DL's appear. it's to give your allies more juice. There's 3 of them, and only one DL's, and your allies have a head start over you.

[EternalSpark]

Originally posted by tetley
Just to clarify, it's the NEXT mission I think you should crank up the diff. The SECOND one where the DL's appear. it's to give your allies more juice. There's 3 of them, and only one DL's, and your allies have a head start over you.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're not understanding what I'm saying -

Having the Dread Lords as they are so early in the campaign - and it gets worse as you've mentioned - I will have to correct this gross flaw. I would expect these enemies at the end of a campaign, or in a level where failure is scripted... otherwise it is purged.

EDIT: And the best thing is? I re-tried it, got the 700% Production Bonus... and still got my behind kicked in

[tetley]

I stand corrected. The next Achilles' Heel mission is definitely easier than this one and you can win it on any difficulty (just let your allies do the work), but I was wrong: the lower diffs are easier. I just did it again on Normal and flew through it. There's one more mission after that--Apocalypse. It's a large galaxy, you get more allies than ever.

On this mission, my understanding is that you actually CAN lose it. You have to play an extra "court the Torians" mission, or something like that. I'll probaby try it myself, just to get some extra mileage out of the campaign (if it's true).

But I wonder what you're doing that's making you lose? Another pointer from the Galciv2 board is, you can let them invade Andersona (that north-central planet closest to the DL). Then you can take it back and steal their uber tech. Personally I didn't do that. But it sounds like a good idea--load up your transports from Andersona, let him invade a next-to-empty planet, re-invade it. You'll lose some PQ.

[drank]

Before you mod the game, you should consider some strategies on the Seige mission and try it again. I won it on "Challenging", although it took a while.

One approach is to build some troop transports early, use the supplied constructors to get enough range to reach the two northwest stars, and simply take out the Drengin world. No need to even meet the Dread Lords if you're fast enough.

Another approach (the one I used) is to build up to challenge the Dread Lords. You'll probably be able to out-expand your allies, so use those planets to get your research going. Your priorities are weapons, speed and logistics. You need fleets fast enough to attack the DL ships (rather than defend against them) with enough combined attack power to kill the DL ship on the first strike. 12 logistics (4 small ships) with 4 attack will serve to kill the DL fighters and escorts with 13 HP. You'll need progressively bigger/tougher fleets to deal with their frigates and battleships when those appear.

But it's definitely doable, and rather fun. Probably the campaign mission I'm most likely to replay.

[Gufnork]

I think most people go about this the wrong way. People are always trying to counter an opponents strength. Never do that. What you want to do is to go around the opponents strengths and hit it's weakness. In this case the opponents strength is superior weaponry. It's weaknesses are many. First, they are few. Their planets can be easily captured. Second, they don't protect their planets. Third, they're slow. So what to do?

First of all, get as high a population as possible. Get as many planets as you can and get atleast one farm on them. That should make it impossible for just one transport to take a planet and they rarely concentrate their forces. Second, get soldiering technologies. That should let you lose fewer colonists each attack.

In order to win, you need to take their planets. As I said previously, they're lightly if at all guarded. What you want is to build really, really fast transports and a few escorts. Evade any Dread Lord ships you see (isn't hard). Once you see your objective, destroy any guards with your escorts and send in your transporter.

The cheesiest way to win is to rush. You have sufficent technology at the beginning to build a fast transport and an escort or two. Buy them, send them to your objective and you win. Took me about ten turns to beat Achilles' heel scenario.

Don't know if this work on the last scenario though, I thought the campaign was the worst one of any game I've ever played. Completly devoid of any interesting features, not even a half-decent story. But that's just my opinion.

[EternalSpark]

But I wonder what you're doing that's making you lose?

Fundamental flaw in what you're saying - it's nothing I'm doing. It's what the DLs are doing.

I can't defend my planets from them in orbit, since they tear up any defenses (even with a military base nearby). I can't defend them on the ground, either. Can't outrun them, evidently 5+ speed isn't enough.

The cheesiest way to win is to rush. You have sufficent technology at the beginning to build a fast transport and an escort or two.

At what difficulty do you get Planetary Invasion at the start?

[Draginol]

Wait a second -- I'm pretty sure the mission you're talking about has an alternative ending?

That is, if you lose, you can do an alternative mission. That's the whole point of having a dynamic campaign.

[tetley]

PC Gaming has a new trend in what dynamic campaigns are. Look at Rise of Nations. You're basically playing a giant game of Risk, where each battle is an individual scenario, and the scenarios change based on what's going on high-level. And if you win, you get bonus cards. Rise of Nations is my favorite favorite game. Warlords Battlecry is the same way: high-level map, you own territories (and bonuses associated with them), and you choose any adjacent territory to attack. Now THAT's a dynamic campaign.

Although, when I finish this campaign (I'm on the huge galaxy one with the drengin/arcaens now), I kind of want to go back & deliberately lose the Achilles' Heel mission and try the alternative mission now.

[EternalSpark]

That is, if you lose, you can do an alternative mission. That's the whole point of having a dynamic campaign.

Sorry, but I'm not interested in going through the loser's bracket, because someone forgot that in games, the player never faces the Ultimate Evil Birthed In The First Level until the very end, when the player is at tech parity with that Ultimate Evil.

[tetley]

The loser's bracket may not be that bad.

[EternalSpark]

The loser's bracket may not be that bad.

Irrelevent. I didn't fight Nemesis in the first land of Black & White, I didn't fight Dragons after Bluepoint station gets destroyed in Wing Commander IV, I didn't fight Paxton Fettel in the first mission of FEAR, I didn't fight the Many's Brain right after getting pushed out of the cyrotube in System Shock 2, and (insert any game that doesn't make you fight the high-end enemies at the beginning).

[Ystalwyn]

Originally posted by EternalSpark


Sorry, but I'm not interested in going through the loser's bracket, because someone forgot that in games, the player never faces the Ultimate Evil Birthed In The First Level until the very end, when the player is at tech parity with that Ultimate Evil.

So you're complaining that the game isn't formulaic enough for you? I was surprised to see the DLs out there so fast, myself, but once you adjust to the fact that they ARE out there, you can certainly work around them. I wound up playing that mission with the mindset that every ship and nearly every planet is expendable so long as the goal is accomplished: Take the Drengin planet.

It's like rushing a bunker to get a grenade tossed in the window or something: You're probably going to lose most of the men who go in at it, but just so long as ONE of them makes it to the target and blows the thing up, the objective is accomplished.

Besides, if the DLs showed up when you're actually on par with them, where's the drama? They'd be a lot less impressive if you could kick their butts in a fair fight.