Xcom, very late to the party

[DrSpike]

Ok it's up to you. But SS2 isn't really about the shooting aspect - it's more the atmosphere and the way the story unfolds. Bioshock is even better, but it'll be about 6 years before you can play that.

Also, HL and Deus Ex are a pleasure, not duty. And I didn't tell you to play Ghost Recon or any of those games - they are more hardcore tactical shooters and whilst you might like the tactical part the shootering is really the game, whereas with HL/DE/SS2 it's part of the game, if that makes sense.

[lord of the mark]

Ok it's up to you. But SS2 isn't really about the shooting aspect - it's more the atmosphere and the way the story unfolds. Bioshock is even better, but it'll be about 6 years before you can play that.

Also, HL and Deus Ex are a pleasure, not duty. And I didn't tell you to play Ghost Recon or any of those games - they are more hardcore tactical shooters and whilst you might like the tactical part the shootering is really the game, whereas with HL/DE/SS2 it's part of the game, if that makes sense.

I realize a made it sound like they are duties, and I did have fun with them. But I think in the interest of fun, as far as FPS are concerned, I would be best with something thats kind of tactical, but not so hardcore, maybe COD or something.

And I liked GR, hard though it was.

Im just thinking I might skip SS, to get to Bioshock sooner.

[Unimatrix11]

System Shock 2 actually got too scary for me at one point back then to play on. I remember i whistled all the time playing it, progressing maybe 5 meters/minutes, cause i was so ****ing scared.

About JA and school killings - i did not mean to say, that games like these motivate to do such things, but rather teach you, how to do them most ´efficiently´. It´s not like ´strafing and jumping´ like many FPS are. Doing a killing-spree that ´style´ would suck immernsely, because your victims would probably still be laughing at you, while you shoot them - which kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing, i suppose.

El Cid, i share your view on old games vs. new ones, though i may be not so much too the extreme than you are. For example, as mentioned, i just recently put up the rule for me: It needs to be SVGA at least - and nomore re-runs of games i have already completed - move on. But not too long ago, i was very much into my old C64-games. Actually on my birthday, i had a ´Kaiser´-party (german C64 ´strategy´ game, 1984).

And the graphics? Yeah, i do think it´s killing games, at least sometimes. To give an example: For a couple of months, i have been playing ´Silent Hunter III´ now, a submarine simulation. It features ´in-boat´ graphics - you know: like you can see your people inside the boat. Now, i recently have been to the forum of this game, and there was a wish-thread. Most of the people first mentioned, that they wanted the crew-members on board to behave more freely and maybe play cards sometimes or whatnot. 4-5 pages of that, made me snap. How important is that to a sub-sim?! Is it even remotely worth the effort or programming (compared to other features) and the strain on system ressources?! How about a better sim, instead? So, even in this grognard-genre (to normal people, subsims are boring as hell), unimaginative stupidity and mindless greed for eye-candy has the majority. How much did it give you, when you saw an NPC in FallOut3 actually sweep the floor? A (text!)line like: ´NPC is sweeping the floor´) would do the same for me, pretty much. Now, in a modern day VR-RPG this simply cannot be done anymore. But in subsims it still can. But once this (or any other genre) goes down the VR path, there is no turning back, and ressources will be bound to that aspect permantently from title to title, in what i regard as a way-off proportion, thus leading to neglectance on matters that could really make a better game (like extending a subsim to a universal fleet-sim, which realistically cannot be done anymore, once you have to model the complete insides of every type of vessel, just because you had done so at some point with the subs and people got used to it). Plus, sometimes too much graphics can actually distract from a game IMHO - my favorite civ-graphics (despite the rule mentioned above) are those of Civ1 - never again was Civ so tidy at its map so readable. In Civ4, i have overlooked enemy -or even my own- units countless times - but -hey!- it´s gotta be 3D, after all its not the 20th century anymore! Personally, i´d much perfer a (high-res, high-color, freely zoomable) 2D map (with colors of civs always being distingishable).

I do not share Dr. Spike´s assessment of the pink-teinted glasses, though of course their is a grain of truth in it. But there are simply classics that were never quite matched and ideas that never got revived (Dan(ielle) Bunton´s games ´M.U.L.E.´ and ´Heart of Africa´ are good examples, the latter being esp. suitable for an (M)MOG).

[lord of the mark]

x-com could DEFINITELY have a better UI, and better graphics.

Its still not that bad though. So far I am getting the hang of the UI on the RT part of the game, the aerial patrol and combat and base building. The TB squad based interface is rather klunky, but then I haven't spent much time with it yet. Perhaps going back to one of the help sites will, well, help.

I do think I will at least manage to get at least my $4.99 worth out of this, at a minimum.

[DrSpike]

Stop complaining about clunky UIs.

One of the bad side effects of playing old games (that you must put up with if you make that choice) is that even the very best ones have issues we overlooked in days gone past. This is part of the rose-tinted glasses phenomenon I referred to above.

[El_Cid]

I guess it has alot to do with what you are used to also? I imagine someone who hasn't been of the generation(of game as in Xcom) we are looking at in this thread will find it very hard to adjust, even if Xcom's Ui is one of the better examples of that era!

UI's are to my mind the only aspect of gaming that has progressed in this modern era. That sounds harsh, but the superior graphics in most of todays games come at a cost, so i don't see that aspect as moving forward as much as UI's. Modern games(say last 6-7 years?) UI's are a huge improvement over most of what went before.

The tactical battle map(the tbs part) has many buttons, most of which you probably wont use often. For example i rarely used the 'save time units for a shot' buttons(you have three, 1 for 'snap shot', 1 for 'normal shot' and 1 for 'aimed shot') as i prefered to move my troops in a covering formation, using a few as scouts that would try to locate the aliens(without getting killed themselves). The main firepower came from a selection of the best shots/grenade/heavy weapon users that would aim to move in formation around the map taking down the aliens the 'scouts' uncovered.

I found this approach much quicker to complete the maps on and more effective than saving time units for emergency shots. I suspect my scouts died more often though.

I did use the 'cycle through units' button though, ok you would loose focus on a particular situation(e.g. soldier x sees alien in hut) but as you would always eventualy cycle back to that trooper at some point, and it is a turn-based section, i never felt that got in the way. It was certainly quicker than scrolling around the map manualy trying to click on a specific guy i wanted to give commands to.

Also the 'vertical height control'button on the tactical map view would get used quite a bit to aid in seeing just where on a roof an alien might be lurking(once one of your guys had seen them of course).

But yeah the whole control interface took up a large portion of the screen, that was just life in low-res complex games at the time.

As for the shooting down alien ships bit, what a simple but effective way to potray that. It had just the right amount of tension for such a simple game element, and you had some control(shoot from distance, shoot close etc) over what happened. You are hopelessly out gunned/powered with earth based tech mind you.

Stick with it LotM, once you get used to the slightly clunky UI it becomes lots of fun, with lots to see and do and discover

[lord of the mark]

One starting base. Two interceptors, one transport to move a combat squad of less than a dozen. And I have the entire f**king planet to defend?

Whose brilliant idea was this, Donald Rumsfeld's?

[EPW]

Xcom is greatly overrated.

[El_Cid]

One starting base. Two interceptors, one transport to move a combat squad of less than a dozen. And I have the entire f**king planet to defend?

Whose brilliant idea was this, Donald Rumsfeld's?

@EPW, no it's not

I suspect your main gripes will be to do with graphics first, UI second. Graphics, granted - it's an old game and if you want less pixelated graphics, either the Amiga1200 or PS1 version of the game solves that issue.

UI is not great as has been mentioned, but compared to many games of it's time, and the amount of different tasks the game gives you to control, it's certainly not the worst of this era.

If not these issues please give more detail where you think this widely acclaimed game falls down and we can do the analysis

[Quillan]

In time, as you get more funds, you will be able to build other bases to cover the whole of the world. I always used to wind up with 2 bases that housed troops for combat missions, 2-3 other bases that only had radar stations and fighters, and one separate base that had all my science and manufacturing in it.

It took time and money to build them all, but I eventually got there. The original base I either abandoned or used a third party program to reconfigure the layout, since it sucks to defend.

[El_Cid]

In time, as you get more funds, you will be able to build other bases to cover the whole of the world. I always used to wind up with 2 bases that housed troops for combat missions, 2-3 other bases that only had radar stations and fighters, and one separate base that had all my science and manufacturing in it.

It took time and money to build them all, but I eventually got there. The original base I either abandoned or used a third party program to reconfigure the layout, since it sucks to defend.

Indeed, listening post and research bases were very important as the game progressed, as was base layout for when you needed to defend them - 1 room access to the main access shaft was difficult to accomodate but worth the effort.

[lord of the mark]

I think I finally kinda sorta understand most of the interface issues on the TB map.

I managed to recruit a soldier to replace one of the ones that got killed. I managed to research something. I am working on the interface issues to assign a new soldier to the transport. And to buy armor and stuff.

Not really up to the strategy stuff. It appears there are way too many choices all available already - base options, weapons options, etc, etc.

Wasn't it Brian Reynolds who said in a strat game you need to introduce the choices gradually? Much smarter approach to game design.

Anyway, enough fun so far to motivate plugging along.

[El_Cid]

I think I finally kinda sorta understand most of the interface issues on the TB map.

I managed to recruit a soldier to replace one of the ones that got killed. I managed to research something. I am working on the interface issues to assign a new soldier to the transport. And to buy armor and stuff.

Not really up to the strategy stuff. It appears there are way too many choices all available already - base options, weapons options, etc, etc.

Wasn't it Brian Reynolds who said in a strat game you need to introduce the choices gradually? Much smarter approach to game design.

Anyway, enough fun so far to motivate plugging along.

At first it does seem a little overwhelming, especially when you go onto manufacturing your own weapons and equipement and get into the finer details and choices of all the weapons and which to use etc

Still the game actually has quite a nice learning curve(lol yes i know i said that!) if you don't include the tactical combat part, in that you start small with one base and few things to really worry about compared to what you will be managing later in the game. It is about putting guys on the lander with weapons and sending out your interceptors while slowly building some improvements(like a large radar array), quite simple stuff to begin with - all the weapon choices(to buy/sell) come into play later - at the start you dont have the money or space needed to get everything, so that acts like a natural curve to what you can do.

Sadly you just have to man-up that in those missions to capture/contain the aliens you are going to lose lots of your men, especially at the early stages where you are always at a disadvantage due to the tech you have vs the aliens.

Using good tactics in the battlemaps is the key - and the best way is to try to do it as close to 'real life' as possible i.e. use cover, work as a team, watch your cross fire, sweep through the area covering your scouts etc.

It's the fact this game doesn't treat you like some dumb kid(quite rare in computer games, especially these days) and draws you into it's story slowly but surely, while giving you pleanty to think about that makes it so special. Soon you'll get the grasp of how to manage things the most efficiently and it becomes very satisfying trying to beat the game

[Dis]

And the game's difficulty levels do make it fairly easy. I never tried the game on the higher difficulties, but lower ones are fairly easy.

Don't worry too much about research in the beginning. You have to complete your first mission before you can bring back alien stuff. In fact, I think you can skip the laser stuff, it's a marginal improvement over rifles and rocket launchers at best. Just go straight to plasma.

First thing I always did was build another base in Europe. It's a high income area, and you want coverage over Russia. You won't have enough money to get the base fully operational, but you should try to get a large radar, an interceptor, and a transport ship (can't remember what these are called) there asap. You'll also need storage, barracks, soldiers, etc.

Next I usually buy more researchers, don't worry about manufacturing too much at the start. As you can't make anything useful yet. But eventually you'll want to start developing plasma weapons. But that can wait until you actually research it. I also buy more soldiers to start off with, as they will die off quickly. And iirc I usually had to buy another barracks to house the soldiers and researchers. But maybe I waited till after the first month to buy the barracks. Just buy enough researchers/soldiers to fill up the barracks.

First thing to do is research. Like I said lasers aren't that useful (though it may be a prereq to something good? can't remember). Buy that large radar, you'll need it. Along with the other base and other things listed above. Then just wait for your first intercept mission. iirc I primarily use the avalanche as it has the longest range and allows for downing alien craft with little damage to yours. Make sure to buy more avalanche rockets to replace the ones you use. Then send in your troop transport.

As mentioned above use tactics. Move in teams of 2 or 3 people. Don't send them out alone. For this reason I don't "scout" too far ahead of the second man. What I do is send the cannon fodder first. Usually he is killed as you don't have good armor yet. I keep the second man close enough behind so he can move into position and get a shot off. In the beginning you may need 2 additional guys to down the alien. I don't send lone scouts as they will be killed and the alien will move away (and gain opportunity shot the next round). The trick is to have the opportunity shot hit your cannon fodder, then you bring in 2 more guys to down the alien.

At this point you should be perusing through your useful stats. I can't remember the stats very well, but there were usually 3 that were really important for me. One was perception I believe. This allows you to shoot from long distances and actually hit. Later on willpower/courage? becomes important for resisting psionic attacks. Those are annoying, but thankfully the game slowly introduces you to the tougher concepts. I hate losing my good guys due to other guys going bezerk/mind controlled. As I said rename your characters who have superior stats. You want these guys to stay alive, but also get kills. That's why they only move behind the cannon fodder, not before. you may want to give names to reflect if they use heavy weapons, or are sniper type. I like to have 2 or 3 guys use rocket launchers/heavy weapons. Everyone else gets rifles and later plasma rifles. Pistols really aren't worth it as the range sucks.

[Quillan]

If I remember correctly, the best money to be made was from laser cannons, since they did not require any special materials to produce. I used to crank out huge quantities of them; in fact, in the late part of the game I didn't need UN funding, as my arms dealership was covering all the money I'd ever need.

I used lasers as an interim weapon since they didn't need ammo. Every time I'd get low on plasma clips I'd break out a few laser rifles, and I kept plenty around in the stores for base defense.

And as far as difficulty goes, my worst memory of X-Com was once when I started a terror mission, I sent the tank down the ramp first (I used a tank or two as an expendable scout), and as soon as I moved, an alien shot a blaster right up into the ship and killed the entire crew.