Hey Asher!

[Asher]

I'd like to point out how brilliant Dale and hex are: in an effort to add civility to the site they have provoked a flamewar.

Are they dumb or do they like doing this?

[Asher]

To be honest I'm amazed this thread is still open with so many staff members posting here. The Apolyton staff remind me a lot of the UN...there's probably some resolution in the admin forum being voted on in 10 passes on if this thread should be locked.

[Nikolai]

I'd rather say it's the opposite.

[Dale]

I'd like to point out how brilliant Dale and hex are: in an effort to add civility to the site they have provoked a flamewar.

I bolded the important word here. We provoked it because we get a laugh at your reactions.

[Dale]

You ****ing idiot. What we're debating is whether it is flawed design! You then go and ignore that argument and talk about how it is documented in the game -- I UNDERSTAND THIS IS HOW IT IS IMPLEMENTED IN THE GAME AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I DESCRIBE THE DESIGN AS FLAWED.

Actually, you questioned my comment that combat units are outside the settlement even if fortified on the plot.

Back in post #67 you said:
Nowhere did the game tutorials or anything obvious indicate soldiers fortified inside of the city do not accrue liberty bells for whatever reason -- an omission in documentation AND a clearly retarded game design.

And yet, I find the documented information inside the Pedia and you have a whiny fit like my two year old screaming "Not fair!"

Oh, Jesus Christ, just stop.

Jason Jones -- a developer -- is the man behind Halo.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

MobyGames:
Project Lead Jason Jones
Lead Designer John Howard

We were talking "game designers" yes, not project leads?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox/halo-combat-evolved/credits

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/data/472132.html

http://www.gamerwiki.com/index.php/Halo:_Combat_Evolved_(Xbox)

Should I continue?

Give me a ****ing break. Jeff Briggs' name is added on last to the list, which indicates he did the least. The game has Brian Reynold's name all over it if you care to actually look at the ****ing game sometime. I'm sure Jeff Briggs designed one or two doo-dads in the game, but giving him credit (substantial credit even) as one of your BEST examples shows you weak and fruitless your examples were.

He's still a game designer who is not a developer.

As for your definition of "good game designer" as I pointed out that is very subjective. But then as I also said, the designer of the biggest gaming franchise and the designers of the highest revenue maker (both PC based as you originally stipulated in your criteria) would be very good markers to gauge this by.

Regardless of whether they are "toys" as you call them or not you cannot deny the influence these designs have had on gaming in the last ten years.

Then shut the **** up and go back to the Civ forums. Please and thank you.

I find this amusing, so I think I'll stay.

EDIT:
BTW Asher, you may want to see Will Wright's achievements commericially, by his peers and the media (which could also possibly imply that he's a good game designer):

EA published The Sims in February 2000 and it became Wright's biggest success yet. It eventually surpassed Myst as the best-selling computer game of all time and spawned numerous expansion packs and other games. He designed a massively multiplayer version of the game called The Sims Online, which was not as popular as the original.

Wright was given a "Lifetime Achievement Award" at the Game Developers Choice Awards in 2001. In 2002, he became the fifth person to be inducted into the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences' Hall of Fame. Until 2006, he was the only person to have been honored this way by both of these industry organizations. In 2007 the British Academy of Film and Television Arts awarded him a fellowship, the first given to a game designer.

He has been called one of the most important people in gaming, technology, and entertainment by publications such as Entertainment Weekly, Time, PC Gamer, Discover and GameSpy. Wright was also awarded the PC Magazine Lifetime Achievement Award in January 2005.

[Asher]

Actually, you questioned my comment that combat units are outside the settlement even if fortified on the plot.

Because the design is nonsensical. I was arguing from a LOGICAL standpoint which, understandably, escaped you. I know very well why it didn't work in the game, hence my problem...thanks.

And yet, I find the documented information inside the Pedia and you have a whiny fit like my two year old screaming "Not fair!"

The Pedia is not a game tutorial and I didn't bother to read every single page of it. The vast majority of people will not, especially for something like this which is obscenely obscure and ridiculous. People don't start looking til they find it's broken. The game design is flawed, period. You're quasi-admitting it now, which is a step, but you're still in the "don't admit to anything" phase.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You really want to challenge my assumption that Jason Jones is the man behind Halo? You may want to wikipedia Bungie and take two seconds. He also happens to be a very well-known developer (he single-handedly coded the Halo prototype as well as Bungie's old games).

We were talking "game designers" yes, not project leads?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox/halo-combat-evolved/credits

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/data/472132.html

http://www.gamerwiki.com/index.php/Halo:_Combat_Evolved_(Xbox)

Should I continue?

Again, you don't know **** all about what you're talking about. The history and fundamental design behind Halo predates even John Howard joining Bungie. In fact, Howard was a Microsoft appointee (if you check his credits he actually works for Microsoft and not Bungie). He was a political appointee that didn't have much power at all. Even in his own words, he said "Basically I'm in charge of fun. We take all the ideas from the entire team and make sure everything fits together."

Jason Jones is the man who designed Halo, regardless of what the credits say. If you're truly interested in the history behind Halo (which is quite interesting), there's ample stuff online. I'm not going to bother explaining corporate politics to you, which is precisely why John Howard is credited for "game design" and precisely also why Bungie wanted independence from Microsoft (too much meddling, eg. appointing "game designers" even though it's effectively in title only).

Look at his game history. He didn't even work on Halo until less than a year before its release, when the design is all about finalized!

He's still a game designer who is not a developer.

As for your definition of "good game designer" as I pointed out that is very subjective. But then as I also said, the designer of the biggest gaming franchise and the designers of the highest revenue maker (both PC based as you originally stipulated in your criteria) would be very good markers to gauge this by.

Regardless of whether they are "toys" as you call them or not you cannot deny the influence these designs have had on gaming in the last ten years.



I find this amusing, so I think I'll stay.

EDIT:
BTW Asher, you may want to see Will Wright's achievements commericially, by his peers and the media (which could also possibly imply that he's a good game designer):

It's bull****. I don't care how you justify it, he is not a game designer. How do you "win" The Sims? How is The Sims 2: Pets and The Sims 2: Mansions in any way an excellent game design?

It's a toy, not a game. It's an important distinction that many mentally impaired people seem unable or unwilling to make. When you make a child a sandbox and put toy machinery inside it, it is not a game -- it's a toy. The Sims is the same way. He tried to make a genuine game out of Spore and failed miserably. About half-way through he realized his failings as a game designer, and recruited real game designers to help (eg, Soren Johnson). Again, these are all well-documented if you care to look them up.

[DrSpike]

Sid Meiers has said, I believe, that the original inspiration for Civ came from Simcity. Even discounting The Sims (about which we agree to disagree) and Spore (which I haven't played yet, but have heard much more diverse opinions about from those who have played, and which I still expect will be improved with xpacks) Simcity's impact ALONE is enough to say that more Will Wrights would be a good thing.

That's fair: Sim City is an important game. The Sims is too really, just one I personally dislike.

[DrSpike]

I'd like to point out how brilliant Dale and hex are: in an effort to add civility to the site they have provoked a flamewar.

Are they dumb or do they like doing this?

Based on the number of flamewars I've seen Dale and Hexagonian engage in over the years, and the number I've seen you engage in over the last month I can only conclude you are the trigger.

[Asher]

Based on the number of flamewars I've seen Dale and Hexagonian engage in over the years, and the number I've seen you engage in over the last month I can only conclude you are the trigger.

They're the trigger, I'm the gun.

People can pull the trigger all they want, as they keep doing.

[Dale]

Because the design is nonsensical. I was arguing from a LOGICAL standpoint which, understandably, escaped you. I know very well why it didn't work in the game, hence my problem...thanks.

The Pedia is not a game tutorial and I didn't bother to read every single page of it. The vast majority of people will not, especially for something like this which is obscenely obscure and ridiculous. People don't start looking til they find it's broken. The game design is flawed, period. You're quasi-admitting it now, which is a step, but you're still in the "don't admit to anything" phase.

So you are admitting that you KNEW about the condition that soldiers do not count towards global rebel sentiment, yet you still did the ultimatly stupid strategy of massing a large standing army before the DoI? You really are retarded!

And the pedia is the in-game reference guide. Hmmm.... reference guides are documentation too. And since Civ1 and Col1 every player of Sid Meier's games knows that the Pedia is the main source of information for the game. Makes it pretty obvious to use the Pedia doesn't it, or are you just a total idiot who didn't read the rules then whines like a little girl when you lose?

You really want to challenge my assumption that Jason Jones is the man behind Halo? You may want to wikipedia Bungie and take two seconds. He also happens to be a very well-known developer (he single-handedly coded the Halo prototype as well as Bungie's old games).

Again, you don't know **** all about what you're talking about. The history and fundamental design behind Halo predates even John Howard joining Bungie. In fact, Howard was a Microsoft appointee (if you check his credits he actually works for Microsoft and not Bungie). He was a political appointee that didn't have much power at all. Even in his own words, he said "Basically I'm in charge of fun. We take all the ideas from the entire team and make sure everything fits together."

Jason Jones is the man who designed Halo, regardless of what the credits say. If you're truly interested in the history behind Halo (which is quite interesting), there's ample stuff online. I'm not going to bother explaining corporate politics to you, which is precisely why John Howard is credited for "game design" and precisely also why Bungie wanted independence from Microsoft (too much meddling, eg. appointing "game designers" even though it's effectively in title only).

Look at his game history. He didn't even work on Halo until less than a year before its release, when the design is all about finalized!

All this blowharding you're doing on Halo (which you brought up for some wierd reason in responsible to examples of PC game designers) is irrelevant. I have still listed PC game designers who were not devs. You're original comment which you so idioticly still maintain even though the proof is there in pure black and white, is false. Admit it or slink away to your rat infested sewer hole.

It's bull****. I don't care how you justify it, he is not a game designer. How do you "win" The Sims? How is The Sims 2: Pets and The Sims 2: Mansions in any way an excellent game design?

It's a toy, not a game. It's an important distinction that many mentally impaired people seem unable or unwilling to make. When you make a child a sandbox and put toy machinery inside it, it is not a game -- it's a toy. The Sims is the same way. He tried to make a genuine game out of Spore and failed miserably. About half-way through he realized his failings as a game designer, and recruited real game designers to help (eg, Soren Johnson). Again, these are all well-documented if you care to look them up.

I can't believe you're such a moron to say that. Anyone here can see you said a stupid moronic idiotic comment such as "all good PC game designers are devs" and when presented with examples who are not you say that sort of spin. What a tool!

[Asher]

It wasn't me who brought up Halo.

Holy ****. Not worth it. Too dumb.

[Dale]

It wasn't me who brought up Halo.

Holy ****. Not worth it. Too dumb.

You're a real wanker. Read it and weep!

http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5505739&postcount=77

So do you define game success by money-making? So you admit the Halo series is many times better than the Civ series?

[Asher]

I clearly didn't bring that up as an example of a good designer. I was hoping you'd admit sales were not a nice metric for gameplay.

[hexagonian]

Bye-bye...