German gamers - are German tastes in gaming different from US tastes?

[Asher]

Re: Re: Re: German gamers - are German tastes in gaming different from US tastes?

Originally posted by flash9286
I drive a import car in the South and have never been ridiculed. Nor can I ever recall seeing this happen.

Well, I obviously don't live there (nor would I ever), but several of my brothers friends have done co-op terms in the southern US and many worked for import manufacturers, and there were definitely barbs thrown that way especially in the more rural areas (not supporting American companies).

I think if you also statistically look at it, Japanese cars are statistically more popular in some regions of North America than others. I know in Canada (Calgary and Toronto) I saw way more Japanese cars than in California.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Presumably not anti-Nintendo, though

Curious, Kuci, not that it has probative value one way or the other, what do you think of Ashers theory that MS is the victim of anti-Americanism in Germany?

I have no idea what the popular sentiment over there is. I think trying to derive it from 360 sales is a flawed approach.

[Asher]

I don't think anyone is deriving that from 360 sales. I'm not sure whether you Americans know just how much you are hated overseas...

[Kuciwalker]

The evidence is the GAME SALES and CONSOLE SALES.

[Asher]

You don't understand the argument. No one is deriving that Germans don't like Americans based on game sales, game console sales is just an example.

Linux is far more popular in Germany than the US or UK also, BTW.

Maybe I'm just being picky, but when you say "derive" it has very specific meaning that doesn't apply here.

When I referred to the "evidence", I'm referring to the evidence of my theory that the anti-Americanism in Germany can affect game console sales, which is very different from saying "Germany hates America, because the 360 didn't sell as well".

[Locutus]

I'm not quite German but contrary to everyone else in this thread at least I'm European, and I live 10 kms from the German border to boot (and the difference between Dutch and Deutch is only one letter for good reason), so maybe I should chime in

Firstly, the PS3 is not only doing well in Germany but also the rest of Europe and the world for that matter, there are precious few countries outside of North America where the XBox is the top-selling console -- there are some but they're a minority overall from what I know. That alone should certainly add some strength to Kuci's argument that maybe it's not the case that Germans are anti-American, but rather Americans are pro-American. That's a theory that seems to apply to other industries as well (including the car industry): it's not the only factor that explains everything but it's definitely something that can't be ingored completely.

As far as games go though, let's face it: to say that it makes no sense for anyone to buy a PS3 over an XBox360 because the XBox is superior in every way is absolutely LUDICROUS. The XBox is a provably and by Microsoft's own admission a BROKEN piece of hardware, it just DOESN'T WORK, or at least not the way it should. It's loud as a jet engine, you can cook an egg on it as hot as it gets and I don't know anyone who's owned one for more than a year and hasn't had to send it in for repairs at least once, often multiple times. These issues are legendary and everyone knows about them, even mainstream press has reported on this over here. Personally I would flip the whole issue around: I find it rather ludicrous that anyone would possibly buy a device they KNOW for almost a fact WILL break within a year after purchase.

Yes, I'm (deliberately) being a bit over the top and behind the times here, I'm sure there are plenty of people who are completely satisfied with their XBox experience and have had no problems (although I sure as hell don't know any), Microsoft is currently doing a decent job of supporting these issues and handling repairs and the latest revisions are supposedly fixed (time will have to tell for sure but they do seem a lot better from what I've heard), but it took a looooong time for MS to even admit there were any issues with it and even now they continue to deny some issues like disk scratches. At least as far as a lot of the European gamers that I know goes, PR-wise most of what Microsoft is doing now is too little too late, the damage has already been done and most people in Europe don't seem to want to touch the 360 with a ten-foot pole (or a 3-meter one, as the case may be ) Again, I actually find it more shocking that Americans don't seem to feel the same way than that Europeans prefer the PS3, but this alone just presents a very strong argument to NOT buy an XBox.

I guess one could argue that Europeans being so harsh on MS over this could be construed as anti-Americanism, but in general I get the sense that Europeans just tend to be much more aware of such issues for all products, regardless of the nationality of the manufacturer, and consumer organisations and consumer rights and the like are much bigger here than in the US, where ironically in your sue-happy society people seem much more content to just put up with some of the crap big companies put you through.

Again, this doesn't explain the whole game industry of course, there are plenty of other factors and arguments as well. The main one I find striking is that Americans seem very willing to pay for just about anything, especially in the world of tech and gadgets. You seem to have no problems paying for for XBox Live, you pay for your TiVo services and the like (there are similar services in Europe that are at least as good but free), you have ridiculous plans for phones (both mobiles and landlines), the ludicrously-priced but feature-poor form-over-function iPhone is one of the best-selling phones on the US market but sitting on shelves in Europe, etc. Again, Americans seem much more willing to put up with that sort of stuff than Europeans.

And yes, the PS3 hardware itself was originally more expensive, but for a multi-year investment the difference wasn't *that* huge and right now the price differences are almost trivial (for most comparable SKUs within ~€50 of each other I believe), and while new PS3 games are as expensive as XBox ones they tend to drop faster in price over time and on top of that PSN is completely free of charge (and while currently more limited than XBox Live, a lot of stuff is still forthcoming which Sony is heavily promoting, it should be competitive with Live within the next 6-9 months -- personally I'm not a fan of promising but not delivering but this seems a powerful argument for European gamers I've talked to). Also, the PS3 also has by far the superior hardware (both in reliability and raw specs) and it's supposed to stay around for ten years rather than the five-ish that MS and Nintendo seem to aim for (again, time will have to tell if that's true but people seem to buy it). So over a lifetime you almost certainly end up paying a lot more for a full XBox experience than you do for the PS3, it's just that MS uses the device more strongly as a gateway drug to suck you in.

On top of that there are yet other major factors, like PlayStation still being a HUGE and entrenched brand name in Europe from the PS2 days, from what I understand much more so than in the US; the fact that until the the most recent SKUs ALL PS2 games were still fully playable on the PS3 (which is not true for all XBox titles on the 360, and not nearly as many people own any of those anyway); the fact that Americans do have a very different taste in games than Europeans, with the XBox catering much more strongly towards Americans; the fact that the PS3 is a better media player; etc.

All-in-all, both platforms have their European fans and are both selling relatively well. It should be noted though that by far most gamers don't own either device yet: most people are still on the previous generation and won't buy any of the current-gen systems until the price drops to around €200, which even the Wii isn't at yet. So the war is still wide open, only the first battle has been won by PS3 so far, time will have to tell who will win in the end in Europe. But both are strong contenders, they both have their pros and cons, to say that there's no good reason to buy a PS3 over an XBox is simply shortsighted and uninformed.

As for myself, I'm not a big console fan (see avatar ) although some of the games that came out this holiday season and are still forthcoming (including CivRev, Little Big Planet and Patapon -- yes, I know that's a PSP game) are starting to peak my interest. The main thing that's stopping me from buying one is the price combined with the fractured market: both platforms are hideously expensive compared to PC gaming and to get the full experience you really want to buy a 360, a PS3, a Wii AND a DS (and for Patapon even a PSP although that's the only compelling PSP title I know of). But if I were to buy a console now and to buy only one, I'd definitely buy a PS3, primarily because of the much wider range of games and the more interesting line-up of exclusives available for it (both current and upcoming): XBox only seems to have mediocre shooters and shooter-RPGs as exclusives, and even most of those eventually make their way to the PC as well (so much for 'exclusive'). In the end that's probably by far the biggest factor for most people, regardless of where they live or what platform they prefer.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Locutus
I'm not quite German but contrary to everyone else in this thread at least I'm European, and I live 10 kms from the German border to boot (and the difference between Dutch and Deutch is only one letter for good reason), so maybe I should chime in

Firstly, the PS3 is not only doing well in Germany but also the rest of Europe and the world for that matter, there are precious few countries outside of North America where the XBox is the top-selling console -- there are some but they're a minority overall from what I know.

the UK and Australia as well. The largest game markets in the world have the 360 as the most popular. Incidentally, it's non-English countries that the PS3 does better in only. I guess that's important for non-English speakers, but not to me.

That alone should certainly add some strength to Kuci's argument that maybe it's not the case that Germans are anti-American, but rather Americans are pro-American. That's a theory that seems to apply to other industries as well (including the car industry): it's not the only factor that explains everything but it's definitely something that can't be ingored completely.

Except its my understanding that the 360 is #1 in Canada and the UK and Australia/NZ as well. And I wouldn't describe any of these countries as "pro-American", just not necessarily anti-American.

As far as games go though, let's face it: to say that it makes no sense for anyone to buy a PS3 over an XBox360 because the XBox is superior in every way is absolutely LUDICROUS. The XBox is a provably and by Microsoft's own admission a BROKEN piece of hardware, it just DOESN'T WORK, or at least not the way it should.

MS never claims it was broken, they did claim that that defect rates were way too high in the first design of the console and did own up to that with a massive warranty extension that is unrivaled. I don't consider this a valid excuse because of that.

It's loud as a jet engine, you can cook an egg on it as hot as it gets and I don't know anyone who's owned one for more than a year and hasn't had to send it in for repairs at least once

While the 360 is louder than the PS3 (noticably), the PS3 gets much hotter to the touch.

often multiple times. These issues are legendary and everyone knows about them, even mainstream press has reported on this over here.

It's been reported everywhere, not just over there. I'd gather it's had more press over here than there, really.

Personally I would flip the whole issue around: I find it rather ludicrous that anyone would possibly buy a device they KNOW for almost a fact WILL break within a year after purchase.

1) They don't know that for a fact, not even close
2) It's under warranty for three years (two more than Sony)
3) Even before reliability issues were known the sales were relatively poor in non-English Europe and anti-MS resentment was very common (yourself included)

Why would people buy it over the PS3? Here's an idea: it has a lot more games and a lot better games, and in the case of overlap it has the best version of those games. If you want a game console, there's really no reason to go for the PS3 over the 360 unless the only game you play is Gran Turismo (IMO, Forza is better) or Final Fantasy.

it took a looooong time for MS to even admit there were any issues with it and even now they continue to deny some issues like disk scratches.

Disc scratches occur on all optical media devices, the 360 is no better or worse. In fact, slot-load drives are statistically worse for disc scratch.

I guess one could argue that Europeans being so harsh on MS over this could be construed as anti-Americanism, but in general I get the sense that Europeans just tend to be much more aware of such issues for all products

This is utter bull****. The 360 sales (and Xbox in general) were always far lower in non-English Europe than other parts of the world. This has nothing to do with reliability and it's a trend that pre-dated the reliability issues with the initial 360s. It's -- I think -- supreme arrogance on your part to assume Europeans are better educated on such issues. Do you think potential US buyers don't know about it? It's been everywhere from the evening news to gaming websites to the New York Times to the Wall-Street Journals to daddy's local business section to the kids at school. People know, they just want to play games.

And I think you are the perfect typical European gamer that inadvertently proves my point. Throughout your entire posting history on this site, you've had anti-MS stances in every possible occasion. You may not want to admit where your hatred or dislike for they come from, but I've talked to many Europeans over the year and there is a DEFINITE anti-MS plurality of opinion over in Europe that is not shared in most of the US, Canada, Australia, or the UK. I think that directly impacts the perception of the console and resulting sales in those countries.

Again, this doesn't explain the whole game industry of course, there are plenty of other factors and arguments as well. The main one I find striking is that Americans seem very willing to pay for just about anything, especially in the world of tech and gadgets. You seem to have no problems paying for for XBox Live, you pay for your TiVo services and the like (there are similar services in Europe that are at least as good but free)

If you think there's anything as good as TiVo or Xbox Live for free, you don't know what you're talking about. Seriously. I have a free DVR and I've experimented with many free Open Source-based HTPC breeds, but none can touch the experience you get with a TiVo. similarly, the online play on the Wii or PS3 or PC pales in comparison to Xbox Live.

Many people pay a premium for premium services.

Again, Americans seem much more willing to put up with that sort of stuff than Europeans.

I think this is an example of subtle anti-Americanism, Kuci & LOTM.

Europeans pay the highest taxes in the world for legendary red-tape and bureaucracy then get all snobby that Americans pay for premium services.

that PSN is completely free of charge (and while currently more limited than XBox Live, a lot of stuff is still forthcoming which Sony is heavily promoting, it should be competitive with Live within the next 6-9 months -- personally I'm not a fan of promising but not delivering but this seems a powerful argument for European gamers I've talked to).

Europeans must be especially stupid if they think PSN will offer full XBL functionality for free, especially if it ever gains traction. Sony has to be eyeing MS' revenue stream with delight. And right now, PSN is so far behind XBL in functionality it's not even a fair competition. The reason PSN is free is it'd be absolutely criminal to charge for such a shoddy service.

Also, the PS3 also has by far the superior hardware (both in reliability and raw specs)

I strongly disagree with you on the "raw specs" part, and will happily school you on that. Most people should be smart enough by now to look at the games. When a game is on multiple platforms, the 360 version always looks best. When will the Sony PR about it being the fastest console end? Europeans seem to buy that hook, line, and sinker. At least Americans are smart enough to discard that as PR once games come out and look better on the 360.

and it's supposed to stay around for ten years rather than the five-ish that MS and Nintendo seem to aim for (again, time will have to tell if that's true but people seem to buy it).

Sony says they will stay around 10 years, MS says 7 years. Most people upgrade long before that point to the next console in ~3 years.

On top of that there are yet other major factors, like PlayStation still being a HUGE and entrenched brand name in Europe from the PS2 days, from what I understand much more so than in the US; the fact that until the the most recent SKUs ALL PS2 games were still fully playable on the PS3 (which is not true for all XBox titles on the 360, and not nearly as many people own any of those anyway); the fact that Americans do have a very different taste in games than Europeans, with the XBox catering much more strongly towards Americans; the fact that the PS3 is a better media player; etc.

The PS3 sales didn't even take off until Sony removed backwards compatibility, yet you have the balls to use BC as a reason why PS outsells the 360 in some regions.

You are also very misinformed. In Europe, the PS3s had limited backwards compatibility -- it had the graphics chip from the PS2, and the CPU was emulated. It didn't work for all games. Now, PS3 doesn't have any backwards compatibility at all while the 360 BC list stands at over 700 games last I checked -- all of which are upscaled with anti-aliasing as well.

the fact that Americans do have a very different taste in games than Europeans

More bull****. Look at the latest top of the German game sales charts:

01. More Brain Training from Dr. Kawashima (DS)
02. Burnout Paradise (PS3)
03. Wii Play (Wii)
04. Crysis (PC)
05. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii)
06. Burnout Paradise (360)
07. New Super Mario Bros. (DS)
08. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (PC)
09. World of Warcraft (PC)
10. World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade (PC)

Which of these games are not popular in America?

For being so well informed about the market, you seem especially ignorant...

[Proteus_MST]

As for Settlers (which was mentioned in the initial posting) and the Anno-Series.

Well, settlers is a game that was made in germany, so, like most of the games that were produced in germany it is most popular here.
And same goes for other games like Die Gillde (known as "Europa 1400" outside of germany) Gothic (I-III), as well as Anno 1507, 1608 and 1701, which are germans products as well (and sold very well in Germany).

It is just like with music.
Although US stars might be popular in germany as well, we also have our own local stars, that, in germany, might be as popular as these US stars, but aren´t as popular outside of germany.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Asher
the UK and Australia as well. The largest game markets in the world have the 360 as the most popular. Incidentally, it's non-English countries that the PS3 does better in only. I guess that's important for non-English speakers, but not to me.

Considering there's only around 500 million in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ and the UK combined and there are 700 million non-English speakers in Europe alone, I beg to differ

Except its my understanding that the 360 is #1 in Canada and the UK and Australia/NZ as well. And I wouldn't describe any of these countries as "pro-American", just not necessarily anti-American.

Actually, in all consumer industries those countries are FAR more pro-American and open to American products than any non-English speaking country in Europe. That's the main reason American companies usually introduce new products in the UK first: it's also easy to localise but most importantly if it doesn't sell there it definitely won't sell in the rest of Europe. I hope I don't have to explain the obvious cultural and historical links between those countries as explanation for that, but considering your bias about Europeans I probably do.

MS never claims it was broken, they did claim that that defect rates were way too high in the first design of the console and did own up to that with a massive warranty extension that is unrivaled. I don't consider this a valid excuse because of that.

Well, thankfully last time I checked you don't determine what European gamers think. It IS definitely a major factor for them, or at least everyone I know.

1) They don't know that for a fact, not even close
2) It's under warranty for three years (two more than Sony)
3) Even before reliability issues were known the sales were relatively poor in non-English Europe and anti-MS resentment was very common (yourself included)

1) They don't need to, as long as they believe it. And I for one do believe it. I wouldn't pay any amount of money for an XBox, not even €50. I'd take it if I got it for free but I don't pay for products I know to be defective. And I'm not the only one.
2) Only BECAUSE it's a defective product. Originally it only had a warranty for 90 days. If that doesn't tell you there's something wrong with the product I don't know what will.
3) Sales were poor because, like I said, most people here aren't willing to pay ridiculous sums of money for any product, American or otherwise. Sales are still poor now for both XBox and PS3, the PS2 and PC are still easily outselling both, the vast majority of people is still waiting for prices to drop to a reasonable level (~€200 or less).

Why would people buy it over the PS3? Here's an idea: it has a lot more games and a lot better games, and in the case of overlap it has the best version of those games. If you want a game console, there's really no reason to go for the PS3 over the 360 unless the only game you play is Gran Turismo (IMO, Forza is better) or Final Fantasy.

The XBox has been out for a year longer, of course it has more games. Multi-platform games were better on XBox early on because developers used that as primary platform as it was older and more established. Many are now starting to switch to PS3 as primary platform and the first reports XBox ports of such games sucking are slowly starting to trickle in -- that's only gonna get worse over time.

As far as good games goes, that's your opinion. Many people I know strongly disagree, XBox only has predominantly mediocre shooters and shooter-RPGs: Halo, mediocre shooter; Gears of War, decent shooter; Crackdown, mediocre shooter-RPG; Mass Effect, mediocre shooter-RPG; Prey, mediocre shooter; etc. There are obviously some other genres as well but the most and certainly the most high-profile ones are all the same type of games. PS3 OTOH has a much wider range of game types and more compelling exclusives, from Heavenly Sword to Ratchet & Clank to MGS to Little Big Planet to Afrika. Maybe mediocre shooters/RPGs are what appeals to you, but as I said, European game tastes are different from American ones, we like a bit more variety.

This is utter bull****. The 360 sales (and Xbox in general) were always far lower in non-English Europe than other parts of the world. This has nothing to do with reliability and it's a trend that pre-dated the reliability issues with the initial 360s. It's -- I think -- supreme arrogance on your part to assume Europeans are better educated on such issues.

It's supreme arrogance on your part to think American products are better. XBox was far, far inferior to PS2 in every way. That combined with all the arguments I listed (which was far more than just the technical issues) leads to people being more likely to buy a PS3 over an XBox early on -- if you don't know either platform yet but you know which of the predecessors was better, obviously you buy the one that has the better history. But again, both platform sold like crap until now, PS2 and PC is where it's at.

Do you think potential US buyers don't know about it? It's been everywhere from the evening news to gaming websites to the New York Times to the Wall-Street Journals to daddy's local business section to the kids at school. People know, they just want to play games.

Yes, it's been all over the news here too, and people specifically refuse to buy it BECAUSE of that, that is something that's much discussed here. Like I said, American consumers generally put up with more crap, Europeans don't. If you don't believe that you need to do some more research on consumer organisations and rights issues in the US vs Europe, I follow such issues in the US closely and that's true for a lot more than just games.

And I think you are the perfect typical European gamer that inadvertently proves my point.

When did I ever say anything of the kind? You're making sh*t up here, I pointed out numerous things that European gamers generally seem to think that I personally disagree with. It might help your case if you didn't base your arguments on biases you have about the people you're responding to but actually listen to what they have to say...

Throughout your entire posting history on this site, you've had anti-MS stances in every possible occasion.

That's truly hilarious for it's falseness. I generally LIKE Microsoft and their products and I own a good number of them (and paid for them, which is somewhat unusual in my social environment). Yes, there are things wrong with them and I have b*tched about that over the years (who hasn't?), but I b*tch AT LEAST as much about FF/Linux/Apple/Sony/Steam/etc, if not considerably more so. In fact, I am on a boycott against both Steam and all Sony products because of DRM issues, in recent PolyCast discussions I've been trying to promote the Zune as alternative for the iPod any chance I get and in the Tech forum I today and yesterday posted rants against FF and said there's a good chance I'll go back to IE soon. On the whole I've always been quite a bit more pro-MS than against them, so you're clearly reading my posts with VERY VERY VERY biased eyes if you think that.

You may not want to admit where your hatred or dislike for they come from, but I've talked to many Europeans over the year and there is a DEFINITE anti-MS plurality of opinion over in Europe that is not shared in most of the US, Canada, Australia, or the UK. I think that directly impacts the perception of the console and resulting sales in those countries.

I think this says a LOT more about your own biases than about Europe or the US.

If you think there's anything as good as TiVo or Xbox Live for free, you don't know what you're talking about. Seriously.

Speak for yourself, the fact that you only address open source stuff says a lot about your ignorance. The Tivo-like services that are available in Europe are free by government sanction and because Canadians don't pay European taxes you don't get to have it (One of the reasons we pay so many taxes ) The hardware we get is comparable as what's available in the US, although Humax, the premiere company for this stuff in Europe, puts out their top-end devices in Asia first (they're Korean), Europe second and US (and presumably Canada) a distant third, if at all (from what I hear there no plans for my current kick-ass Humax DVR model to be released in the US anytime soon).

For XBox, yes, I already said it's better than PSN now (and indeed than the Wii thingamabob whatever it's called, although Steam can certainly give it a run for it's money -- but since I boycott for DRM issues I can't say for sure which is better). But PSN isn't even half rolled out yet, it's currently effectively an alpha. Things are going to change a LOT in the next 6-9 months. Will it become better than XBox Live? I don't know, time will tell. However, the fact that I'm willing to consider this possibility and you're adamant that nothing Sony puts out can possibly hope to compete with XBox says a lot about to what extent who know what who's talking about.

Europeans pay the highest taxes in the world for legendary red-tape and bureaucracy then get all snobby that Americans pay for premium services.

I think this is an example of unsubtle anti-Europeanism, Kuci & LOTM.

Europeans must be especially stupid if they think PSN will offer full XBL functionality for free, especially if it ever gains traction.

You're especially stupid if you think Sony isn't using their free online service as a way to get people to buy PS3s over XBoxes, in the same way that Valve is doing the same thing with Steam. That you find it shocking that it's working in large parts of the world says a lot about you.

Again, anyone who takes the time to observe both markets can easily see that Americans are willing to pay (more) for a lot of services that Europeans aren't. Doesn't mean Europeans are fundamentally superior or whatever words you're trying to put in my mouth, but it's a difference in culture. As you point out, we pay far more taxes to get things like medical care 'for free' when Americans rather than pay for it directly. Do you really think we believe these companies don't make up their revenue elsewhere? On the whole we're just not pay-as-you-go type people. There's a reason both software and hardware is considerably more expensive in Europe than in the US -- MS is the only one that doesn't seem to have caught on to this yet.

I strongly disagree with you on the "raw specs" part, and will happily school you on that. Most people should be smart enough by now to look at the games. When a game is on multiple platforms, the 360 version always looks best.

The XBox competing against early PS3 games looked better, yes, but as said that was because of porting issues and the PS3 being so new. Right now PS3 is gradually starting to pull ahead with some games and it's only just starting to garner momentum. Early 360 graphics were barely better than PS2 ones, if you judge any console by its first year games you're very shortsighted. At least Europeans are smart enough to know that

Sony says they will stay around 10 years, MS says 7 years. Most people upgrade long before that point to the next console in ~3 years.

Again, you're putting words (and actions) into other people's mouths. Most people I know have had a PS2 or Gamecube (and in some cases XBox) for years and don't plan to upgrade to a next-gen console anytime soon. They prefer to buy as little hardware as possible as cheap as possible and keep their consoles easily last 5-7 years. Maybe it's different in the US, but that's pretty standard for Europe from what I know.

The PS3 sales didn't even take off until Sony removed backwards compatibility, yet you have the balls to use BC as a reason why PS outsells the 360 in some regions.

You spent the bulk of your posts saying PS3 sold well in Germany and now you're suddenly doing a 180. Sorry, you're gonna have to make up your mind. FYI the upsurge in sales for the PS3 after the latest SKU coincided with the holiday season and all reports I read on it were based on NPD numbers, which of course only represents the US.

Which of these games are not popular in America?

Yes, let's base the entire industry for an entire continent on one month's sales chart for one country...

But given that, how about all four of the PC games? That's a big, big rift between the US and Europe to begin with (even in the UK). Developers and publishers of PC games have indicated that they earn 60-80% of their worldwide revenue in Europe and software sales trumps all consoles in the major markets, in German PC sales even exceed those of the #2 and #3 platforms combined: 12 million units for PC vs 5.5m for PS2 and 5m for DS. The 360 and PS3 both sold under a million games, even combined that's only a tenth of the PC market -- like I said, most people aren't buying either of these yet. The UK is indeed more 360-friendly but with 9m units it's still fourth after PC games (18m), DS (15m) and PS2 (14m) -- PS3 sold 5m.

Rather than looking for data for one month, let's look at the data for a full year:

UK (can't find the numbers for Germany)

1) FIFA 08 (1,391,435)
2) Dr Kawashima's Brain Training (1,016,558)
3) Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (935,044)
4) PES 2008 (787,382)
5) More Brain Training From Dr Kawashima (760,225)
6) Halo 3 (735,176)
7) The Simpsons Game (734,595)
8) Wii Play (688,002)
9) Assassin's Creed (670,286)
10) WWE Smackdown VS Raw 2008 (563,121)

US:

1) Halo 3 (360, Microsoft) - 4.82 million
2) Wii Play with Wii Remote (Wii, Nintendo) - 4.12 million
3) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (360, Activision) - 3.04 million
4) Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (PS2, Activision) - 2.72 million
5) Super Mario Galaxy (Wii, Nintendo) - 2.52 million
6) Pokémon Diamond (DS, Nintendo) - 2.48 million
7) Madden NFL 08 (PS2, Electronic Arts) - 1.9 million
8) Guitar Hero II (PS2, Activision) - 1.89 million
9) Assassin's Creed (360, Ubisoft) - 1.87 million
10) Mario Party 8 (Wii, Nintendo) - 1.82 million

The only overlap is in Halo3, Wii Play and CoD. The US list represents 5 genres on it, the UK list 7. The football games obviously don't sell well in the US and while Brain Training did okay it didn't even come remotely close in popularity compared to Japan and Europe (never even broke into a monthly top ten), making 4 of the British top 5 games that are relatively unpopular in the US. Of course it's hard to draw too many conclusions out of just the top 10, but this is for the UK, the European market that's by far the most similar to the US (I seriously doubt Halo 3, the Simpsons and Smackdown vs Raw would be in the German top 10).


Oh, FYI, since I actually have a life that involves more than hanging out on sites I claim to hate all day and posting ignorant close-minded trolls, I'm not gonna waste my time in a long, dragged out flame war with you. I was responding to a question by LotM, not you. Feel free to respond but don't count on me countering whatever you bring up. I'm sure you'll consider that a concession by me but if that makes you happy then good for you. Just try not to think about that quote about arguing on the Internet and Special Olympics

[UnOrthOdOx]

Re: Re: Re: German gamers - are German tastes in gaming different from US tastes?

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Why one might ask, is ANYONE buying the PS3? Yet apparently millions are. And not for the PS3 exclusives currently out, which have sold well nowhere, AFAICT.

The only reasons someone would get a PS3 and buy games for it would be

A. They like its graphics/tech features more than the 360
B. They expect FUTURE exclusives to be better
C. They like Bluray, and ALSO play games.

All of the above have been claimed by various Sony fans, AFAICT. It could be any of them is a stronger factor in Germany than in the US.

Why did we buy a PS3?

Bluray certainly had something to do with it. It is the best bluray player out there.

The fear of Xbox failures certainly had something to do with it. Warranty or no.

The fact that I've long been oppose to monthly fee to play games crap, coupled with Xboxlive, and the fact we don't plan on playing online a whole lot but might like to occasionally pop in and the PS3 makes that free certainly played into it. So, while Xbox Live is actually a huge selling point for the 360, it was actually a detriment in our eyes.

Backwards compatibility had a lot to do with it. (got ye ole 60gb version with full backwards)

And the price drop had a whole lot to do with it.

What's surprised me is of the 7 games we currently own on it, 5 are PS3 exclusive.

I'm not about to go saying it's the best for everyone, or that it's better than anything. Just that for our situation it was the best: Mostly casual players, not interested in FPS, who don't play online and like a bluray player to go along with it all.

It even got my wife back into gaming with Uncharted. (which is about the best game review I can think of)

[LDiCesare]

Incredible:
Americans are becoming anti american!

Actually, in all consumer industries those countries are FAR more pro-American and open to American products than any non-English speaking country in Europe.

Ditto.

the UK and Australia as well. The largest game markets in the world have the 360 as the most popular.

I suppose that Japan is not one of the largest game markets in the world?

[Harovan]

I don't own a console (and never will) and can't comment on console sales.

What concerns Anti-Americanism, its existence in Germany is indisputable, but it's mostly in a "crazy/silly Americans" manner and not in a "I hate all what is American" manner and thus hardly leads to boycotts. At least for CDs, movie DVDs and video games people don't give a damn where they are produced, why would they for consoles?

Lastly, on game preference, and I don't have numbers on this or links, nothing but experiences from online games I play (and hence, not representative). The average American player in my experience is a spoiled kid, the average European a young adult. If this is true as I believe, it would inevitably lead to different game preferences.

[Asher]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I suppose that Japan is not one of the largest game markets in the world?

It is but it's not in the top two..., it depends where you draw the line.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Locutus
Considering there's only around 500 million in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ and the UK combined and there are 700 million non-English speakers in Europe alone, I beg to differ

Except thse 500 million in the English-speaking countries buy more games, by far, than those 700 non-English in Europe plays a bit of a role.

Actually, in all consumer industries those countries are FAR more pro-American and open to American products than any non-English speaking country in Europe. That's the main reason American companies usually introduce new products in the UK first: it's also easy to localise but most importantly if it doesn't sell there it definitely won't sell in the rest of Europe. I hope I don't have to explain the obvious cultural and historical links between those countries as explanation for that, but considering your bias about Europeans I probably do.

The main reason it's introduced in the UK first is exactly because it doesn't require localization, which is expensive and time-consuming. Don't bother trying to BS me with other reasons.

2) Only BECAUSE it's a defective product. Originally it only had a warranty for 90 days. If that doesn't tell you there's something wrong with the product I don't know what will.

A pretty stupid comment. 90 days is the standard. The Xbox, PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Wii...all have 90 day warranties. There's something wrong with all of these consoles, surely?

3) Sales were poor because, like I said, most people here aren't willing to pay ridiculous sums of money for any product, American or otherwise.

This so clearly explains why the PS3 -- the most expensive console with the least amount of games -- sells better than the 360...

The XBox has been out for a year longer, of course it has more games. Multi-platform games were better on XBox early on because developers used that as primary platform as it was older and more established.

Not true at all. Look at Assassin's Creed. Announced for the PS3 first as an exclusive, even! Then the PS3 version had image quality problems and framerate problems despite this, the 360 was the undisputed best version of the game.

There are tons of technical reasons for why PS3 games don't look as good as their Xbox 360 counterparts, and even more for why PS3 games take so much longer to develop than the 360 counterparts. It doesn't have anything to do with time on the market -- PS3's been out 1.5 years now, that's no longer an excuse yet it is still the norm for PS3 games to look worse and take longer.

As for the fundamental argument that any port will look worse -- also completely bull****. Look at how the PS2 -> Xbox ports turned out. The Xbox was actually a faster console so the ports from PS2 to Xbox allowed them to have better looking games, which is opposite of what happens with the PS3 ports.

Many are now starting to switch to PS3 as primary platform and the first reports XBox ports of such games sucking are slowly starting to trickle in -- that's only gonna get worse over time.

Uhh...name one such game? Only one I can think of was Burnout, and the developers motivations for starting on the PS3 was because they always started on PS and ported to 360s.

As far as good games goes, that's your opinion. Many people I know strongly disagree, XBox only has predominantly mediocre shooters and shooter-RPGs: Halo, mediocre shooter; Gears of War, decent shooter; Crackdown, mediocre shooter-RPG; Mass Effect, mediocre shooter-RPG; Prey, mediocre shooter; etc. There are obviously some other genres as well but the most and certainly the most high-profile ones are all the same type of games. PS3 OTOH has a much wider range of game types and more compelling exclusives, from Heavenly Sword to Ratchet & Clank to MGS to Little Big Planet to Afrika. Maybe mediocre shooters/RPGs are what appeals to you, but as I said, European game tastes are different from American ones, we like a bit more variety.

If you like more variety, then go for the platform with far more games to choose from!

This comment is the lamest yet. Heavenly Sword and Gears of War are surprisingly comparable games, for instance. If Mass Effect is a shooter, so is Ratchet & Clank. Basically, using your logic, of the 5 games you listed, 3 are "shooters" and the other 2 aren't even out. The simple facts are, there's more variety on the 360 than the PS3. Western RPGs, Japanese RPGs, racing games (which are huge in Europe...), shooters, puzzle games, old-school arcade games, etc. The only PS3 game that sold at expectations so far was Call of Duty 4. Make of that what you will...

It's supreme arrogance on your part to think American products are better.

No one said such a thing. Please learn to read.

XBox was far, far inferior to PS2 in every way. That combined with all the arguments I listed (which was far more than just the technical issues) leads to people being more likely to buy a PS3 over an XBox early on -- if you don't know either platform yet but you know which of the predecessors was better, obviously you buy the one that has the better history.

This is precisely what I'm talking about, Kuci and LOTM. It's this kind of subtle anti-Americanism that leads to huge misunderstandings and general stupidity about American products.

The Xbox was far, far superior to the PS2 in every way except the PS2's strong brand history and head start.
The Xbox -- UNDISPUTABLY SO -- was far faster, far easier to develop for, and had a far better online infrastructure.

Speak for yourself, the fact that you only address open source stuff says a lot about your ignorance.

I didn't, maybe you should read closer. The system I use now (by Cisco/Scientific Atlanta) is not open source.

The Tivo-like services that are available in Europe are free by government sanction and because Canadians don't pay European taxes you don't get to have it (One of the reasons we pay so many taxes ) The hardware we get is comparable as what's available in the US, although Humax, the premiere company for this stuff in Europe, puts out their top-end devices in Asia first (they're Korean), Europe second and US (and presumably Canada) a distant third, if at all (from what I hear there no plans for my current kick-ass Humax DVR model to be released in the US anytime soon).

Humax are available here as well as DVRs, and actually they aren't received well at all. Only the smallest satellite provider in Canada uses it and most people seem to prefer Motorola's DVR.

You also seem to ignore the fact that basically all these devices now are clones of TiVo.

For XBox, yes, I already said it's better than PSN now (and indeed than the Wii thingamabob whatever it's called, although Steam can certainly give it a run for it's money -- but since I boycott for DRM issues I can't say for sure which is better). But PSN isn't even half rolled out yet, it's currently effectively an alpha. Things are going to change a LOT in the next 6-9 months.
Will it become better than XBox Live? I don't know, time will tell. However, the fact that I'm willing to consider this possibility and you're adamant that nothing Sony puts out can possibly hope to compete with XBox says a lot about to what extent who know what who's talking about.

The simple fact is I've been a PS3 owner for a year. I've heard this "6-9 months now" comment since it launched. The improvements have been minor. Now everyone is waiting for "Home" to be the ultimate Xbox Live Killer, but it won't be...in fact it's the wrong direction completely. Instead of working on good matchmaking services they are working on making a virtual world that is actually more annoying than you might think. Want to watch movie trailers? Screw choosing it from a menu quickly, how about a 2 minute walk across "Home" to the "movie theatre" where 30-40% of your screen is occupied by fake movietheatre graphics?

Home is ill-conceived, and yes, I've done lots of research into it and kept abreast on it. I can confidently laugh in the face of comments saying Sony will, in 6-9 months, match and/or exceed what Xbox Live has done in 6 years.

You're especially stupid if you think Sony isn't using their free online service as a way to get people to buy PS3s over XBoxes, in the same way that Valve is doing the same thing with Steam. That you find it shocking that it's working in large parts of the world says a lot about you.

You must be especially stupid because you don't understand what I ever say. I realize Sony is using this as a way to get people to buy the PS3 over Xbox. What I said that is if Sony ever gets in the dominant position again (and no longer needs to give away free services to get people to buy their product), they'll want the $800M a year like MS is making from Xbox Live. If you looked at Sony's pathetic financials lately, you'd see why.

The XBox competing against early PS3 games looked better, yes, but as said that was because of porting issues and the PS3 being so new. Right now PS3 is gradually starting to pull ahead with some games and it's only just starting to garner momentum. Early 360 graphics were barely better than PS2 ones, if you judge any console by its first year games you're very shortsighted. At least Europeans are smart enough to know that

This is bull****. Even upcoming games like Grand Theft Auto 4 look noticably better on the 360. Rockstar has even announced the PS3 as the reason for delays because they're trying to get it to match with what the 360 already looks like. I'm not judging by its first year at all, I'm judging based on developer's comments and games released 1.5 years after it's out, and games that will come out 2 years after it's out. I'm also very informed as to the technical reasons for why the PS3's graphics don't match up to the 360's, and the main reason is the PS3's GPU is a generation behind the 360's and simply slower across the board. It's also memory-bandwidth starved, with a 22.4GB/s connection to the framebuffer vs 256GB/s on the 360. That makes a huge difference in what you can do for many shaders.

You spent the bulk of your posts saying PS3 sold well in Germany and now you're suddenly doing a 180. Sorry, you're gonna have to make up your mind. FYI the upsurge in sales for the PS3 after the latest SKU coincided with the holiday season and all reports I read on it were based on NPD numbers, which of course only represents the US.

You're simply misinformed. The 40GB SKU is when PS3 sales took off, which was before the holiday season. And I'm not doing a 180, both the PS3 and Xbox 360 sold relatively poorly in Germany, but when BC was removed and price was cut, sales skyrocketed for the PS3.

Yes, let's base the entire industry for an entire continent on one month's sales chart for one country...

Every month I've found shows the same games popular in the US. Put up or shut up, find me months showing Germany sales with most games unrelated to what anyone buys in the US.

But given that, how about all four of the PC games? That's a big, big rift between the US and Europe to begin with (even in the UK). Developers and publishers of PC games have indicated that they earn 60-80% of their worldwide revenue in Europe and software sales trumps all consoles in the major markets

I think you underestimate how popular PC games are in North America. But, being dumb North Americans who pay for premium services, they pirate PC games at a rate that I must be far higher than Germany. PC games are just as popular as consoles in the younger crowds, but I don't know of anyone who buys PC games unless they need to play online. That skews the salescharts.

In any case, PC is a platform. Even the PC games in those charts are the same games Americans are statistically playing on consoles as well. Your point is invalid.

Rather than looking for data for one month, let's look at the data for a full year:

UK (can't find the numbers for Germany)

1) FIFA 08 (1,391,435)
2) Dr Kawashima's Brain Training (1,016,558)
3) Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (935,044)
4) PES 2008 (787,382)
5) More Brain Training From Dr Kawashima (760,225)
6) Halo 3 (735,176)
7) The Simpsons Game (734,595)
8) Wii Play (688,002)
9) Assassin's Creed (670,286)
10) WWE Smackdown VS Raw 2008 (563,121)

US:

1) Halo 3 (360, Microsoft) - 4.82 million
2) Wii Play with Wii Remote (Wii, Nintendo) - 4.12 million
3) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (360, Activision) - 3.04 million
4) Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (PS2, Activision) - 2.72 million
5) Super Mario Galaxy (Wii, Nintendo) - 2.52 million
6) Pokémon Diamond (DS, Nintendo) - 2.48 million
7) Madden NFL 08 (PS2, Electronic Arts) - 1.9 million
8) Guitar Hero II (PS2, Activision) - 1.89 million
9) Assassin's Creed (360, Ubisoft) - 1.87 million
10) Mario Party 8 (Wii, Nintendo) - 1.82 million

The only overlap is in Halo3, Wii Play and CoD. The US list represents 5 genres on it, the UK list 7. The football games obviously don't sell well in the US and while Brain Training did okay it didn't even come remotely close in popularity compared to Japan and Europe (never even broke into a monthly top ten), making 4 of the British top 5 games that are relatively unpopular in the US. Of course it's hard to draw too many conclusions out of just the top 10, but this is for the UK, the European market that's by far the most similar to the US (I seriously doubt Halo 3, the Simpsons and Smackdown vs Raw would be in the German top 10).

This actually continues to support my point. All of those games in Germany are still incredibly popular games in the US...the fundamental tastes are very similar, even if the numbers in the ranking change a bit.

Oh, FYI, since I actually have a life that involves more than hanging out on sites I claim to hate all day and posting ignorant close-minded trolls

Could've fooled me, because that's exactly what this was.

[lord of the mark]

so lets see of the 4 euros whove posted thus far, one didnt address the q directly (proteus) and the others all disagreed with Asher. Whos mainly responded with attacks on the PS3. Which may be correct for all I know, but sure dont explain the Americans (and brits, canucks, and aussies) whove bought the PS3 and games for it.