I think I'm getting too old for computer games

[DrSpike]

Well each to his own. Problem solving in a game seems to me just as real as problem solving in real life. Good games have real scope for skill to influence the outcome and for creativity to be rewarded.

Plus, many of us do serious stuff all day anyway, so a more relaxed environment to be creative in is welcome.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Well each to his own. Problem solving in a game seems to me just as real as problem solving in real life. Good games have real scope for skill to influence the outcome and for creativity to be rewarded. Plus, many of us do serious stuff all day anyway, so a more relaxed environment to be creative in is welcome.

I don't disagree that creativity can exist in a game, I am simply saying that creativity spent within a game environment has only ephemeral results that last as long as your gaming session or save file. While creativity spent in "real life" gives tangible results that you can use, or share with and effect other people. No one really gives a **** how great an empire you built in civ. It's an achievment that only exists within an imaginary world..... you might aswell be LARPing.

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by General Ludd

I don't think they do, really. They foster creativity within the confines of the game, but expending creativity into a virtual world that is going to be deleted is what I call a blackhole. Why spend my time building a virtual empire, or constructing something within the gameworld, when I could be creating something that is actually tangible and real?

Originally posted by General Ludd

I don't disagree that creativity can exist in a game, I am simply saying that creativity spent within a game environment has only ephemeral results that last as long as your gaming session or save file. While creativity spent in "real life" gives tangible results that you can use, or share with and effect other people. No one really gives a **** how great an empire you built in civ. It's an achievment that only exists within an imaginary world..... you might aswell be LARPing.

I think you're wrong about this, sir! Check out Second Life... The gamers have property rights to the things they create in the game... A flourishing market economy has resulted and there seems to be no end to the creativity sparkled by that game...

I think the division between the real world and the on-line worlds that some people make as "real" (tangible?) and "not for real" (not tangible?) is a big mistake.

A Swedish painter creates and sells art in one of the on-line worlds; people decorate their on-line homes with it. He earns real money...

When asked why people would pay real money for art that is not "real" he replied that art in the form of pixels on a screen is no different from colour "pixels" within a wood frame...

Another player designed a game in Second Life that the inhabitants can play for a fee... He earns real money... The game is now licensed to Nintendo... Another one came up with an animation enabling avatars to cuddle, which became a big commercial hit...

A collegue of mine denounces this with what he calls the "wire test"... Cut the wire to the servers and none of it exists anymore, hence it is not real... Stupid, really. I counter this with the "bomb test" or the "gasoline test" or whatever... Set a "real" painting on fire and it will not exist anymore, ergo it is not real?

The most surprising thing is that hardcore gamers do not seem to accept this development easily... Wheras my wife (no gamer) wants me to "come up with something" in SL that will support us...

The problem is... If I am not creative in "real" life, chances are small that I will be in Second Life...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Double post...

Carolus

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by DrSpike
....................
Plus, many of us do serious stuff all day anyway, so a more relaxed environment to be creative in is welcome.

Amen, and a computer game compared to a film or a book does give you that creative outlet, although it is a much under used aspect in gaming imho.

Still i know what General Ludd is talking about, when you are gaming for gaming's sake - then wonder why 20 years later you have no 'real' friends or a career. Gaming, like many things in life, when taken to the extreme can be as harmfull as good.

Still gaming has given me so much more enrichment in my life than if i had only ever watched films+ read books as my 'entertainment'. While both those mediums are essential parts of all culture( live plays take the place of movies in many, and good old fashioned story telling around a fire in place of the printed book) - having access to gaming as part of my culture growing up did give me valuable experiences i would not have otherwise had.

Gaming has the potential to be an excellent 'learning' medium as much as the mass market 'light entertainment' that it often is.

[Blake]

Another argument against General Ludd's idea is that entropy eventually claims EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what you create and how long it lasts for, eventually it's going to be gone. A little bleak really but I can't see any way around it .

All realities are transient.

But to stick to this reality and local time frames. I tend to find that playing in isolation is pretty empty. The real joy of gaming is in the internet forums and the sharing of ideas and good old strategizing. RealmsBeyond is a pretty good example of that taken to something of an extreme (and interaction isn't just a matter of SP vs MP - in fact I often find that SP can be more interactive because MP focuses too much on competition which dampens the whole sharing of ideas thing...).

I admit that when I was a kid I enjoyed playing like Lemmings, but ever since I first joined an internet community (yay Stars! newsgroup) the real fun has been in gaming communities.

[General Ludd]

Carolous Rex, property rights and profit does not make something "real" Afterall, the stock market is perhaps the stupidest game of them all.



I can't help but wonder what would happen if all those people who are expending their creativity into a game like second life actually spent their time involved in the communities that they really live in.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by General Ludd
.......
I can't help but wonder what would happen if all those people who are expending their creativity into a game like second life actually spent their time involved in the communities that they really live in.

They might get mugged or shot?? or at the very least rained on? But yeah i'd also add to your valid arguement that if we stopped letting governments spend our taxes on weapons the world would be a much better place also

[Wiglaf]

Wtf is second life?

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by General Ludd

Carolous Rex, property rights and profit does not make something "real"

Perhaps not (although property rights are fundamental to the development of any modern economy)... What about the following ingame events? Live concerts (with artist Suzanne Vega, who performed live in avatar form), an interview with author Kurt Vonnegut (live with the author present on stage as an avatar), the staff of French president candidate Ségolène Royal ready (in avatar form) to answer your questions about her political agenda? Are they real?

Originally posted by General Ludd

I can't help but wonder what would happen if all those people who are expending their creativity into a game like second life actually spent their time involved in the communities that they really live in.

These people would probably say that SL is part of the communities they really live in. Many of them meet in "real" life too, just like Apolytoners do.

Anyway, it'll be exciting to see what happens with these kinds of worlds.... I read about a teacher in architecture, who takes his class with him into SL... The students build houses and skyscrapers, experimenting with forms and colours... I think it's cool!

Carolus

[Jon Miller]

Someone should link to the somethingawful 'explorations' of second life.

Jon Miller

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by General Ludd



I don't disagree that creativity can exist in a game, I am simply saying that creativity spent within a game environment has only ephemeral results that last as long as your gaming session or save file. While creativity spent in "real life" gives tangible results that you can use, or share with and effect other people. No one really gives a **** how great an empire you built in civ.

I disagree completely. What if you write a moving poem but no one reads it except you, or paint a picture but no one sees it? Neither are any less creative because of their lack of exposure.

Equally, you can share game strategies and thoughts.

[lord of the mark]

i generally try not to game in lieu of going out into the community and doing stuff. Certainly not to game in lieu of interactions with family. Or with needed chores (though im certainly not perfect)

I would like to think that I game in situations where I would otherwise be watching TV, reading a book, or surfing the net. I tend to find gaming a definitely "better" use of time than TV watching, and most net stuff. Books, well it depends on the book, and on the game. I like to weave gaming and reading - like letting a game of EU2 inspire to read a book about the Ottoman empire, for ex ( I realize that only works for some games)

all in all, I think I am a bit less patient for games. Right now Im playing BG2, which some folks say is the best single player RPG, and AFAICT they may well be right - and even so I dont want to play it more than 30 or 40 minutes at a time.

[Carolus Rex]

Sweden to open Second Life embassy:

http://news.com.com/Sweden+to+open+Second+Life+embassy/2110-1043_3-6154938.html

Carolus

[CapTVK]

Second Life is majorly overhyped IMHO, they may get a lot of DL's because it has been all over the press but not many people stick around afterwards. Just what exactly can you do in SL anyway?...apart from walking, chatting and looking at corporate store signs and speculating on virtual real estate.

Couldn't someone come up with a educational "Science&Industry" type virtual world where you can learn about rudimentary physics , engineering and stuff....?