Vanguard Saga Of Heroes - Player made screenshots released

[lightblue]

Going to be hard to compete with WoW, considering it's gobbled up like 2/3s of the MMORPG market with ~ 4M subscribers worldwide?

[Jon Miller]

WOW has close to 7m subscribers

JM

[Jon Miller]

but actually, it expanded the market..

I think a lot of the old market doesn't find it the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Jon Miller

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lightblue
Going to be hard to compete with WoW, considering it's gobbled up like 2/3s of the MMORPG market with ~ 4M subscribers worldwide?

As I wrote, it is not aiming to compete with World of Warcraft. It follows an other philosophy and aims for completely different players. WoW is a pretty easy game aiming for casual players. Core players beat it (= reach the end game) very quickly and most then move on to other games. Communities do not last very long under these circumstances, at least not with the same (active) members.

VG aims to be a comparatively hard game, designed for core gamers (roughly defined as playing 4-5 hours at 4-5 days every week). Its content is going to be about 20% soloable, 60% group content and 20% raid content throughout all level ranges. Leveling will go slower than in many other games, that helps to keep communities together. To keep it interesting nonetheless and make it less of a grind, the size of the world will be huge, so you actually have a lot to explore and much choice on what to do. And other than in games like WoW or EQ2 raiding below the level cap will make sense, because you do not outlevel your spoils in mere days.

It is aiming for about 300k subscribers and will be a success if it reaches this number, the chances of which are not bad.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


As I wrote, it is not aiming to compete with World of Warcraft. It follows an other philosophy and aims for completely different players. WoW is a pretty easy game aiming for casual players. Core players beat it (= reach the end game) very quickly and most then move on to other games. Communities do not last very long under these circumstances, at least not with the same (active) members.

Again you willfully misrepresent what WoW offers. The levelling is fast, but this does not mean the raiding endgame is easy, and contrary to your assertion the raiding community is strong, with many people staying with the game and their guild for very long periods of time. Just because you prefer a game with slower levelling/higher cap and left WoW don't assume everyone else behaves the same way.

I can handle your different views on this (and respect them), but you don't need the misrepresentations to make your case, or push VG, which actually intrigues me for taking a different path.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Grumbold


There's something more ridiculous than Lineage 2 out there? I'm amazed

Haven't ever played L2, but I doubt it beats GW for the bare flesh factor.

Post screenshots if you think I am wrong though.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Again you willfully misrepresent what WoW offers. The levelling is fast, but this does not mean the raiding endgame is easy, and contrary to your assertion the raiding community is strong, with many people staying with the game and their guild for very long periods of time. Just because you prefer a game with slower levelling/higher cap and left WoW don't assume everyone else behaves the same way.

I can handle your different views on this (and respect them), but you don't need the misrepresentations to make your case, or push VG, which actually intrigues me for taking a different path.

Out of pure interest: How many time per week/month are you playing it now, compared with your time levelling up? How many different raids have you done?

[Harovan]

Oh and by the way, I won't call a game, where I can solo a whole dungeon and kill the boss 2 levels above me also solo (and without breaking in sweat), hard by any means. Even in easy-as-cake EQ2 such a boss would wipe the floor with me. I will not call a game, where autoattack is an "I win" button even of mediocre difficulty. And neither will I call it community oriented.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Out of pure interest: How many time per week/month are you playing it now, compared with your time levelling up? How many different raids have you done?

I raid Monday to Thursday, and usually a couple on weekends. Many people in my guild have been doing this since soon after release. The guild as it stands has been together for about a year. And this is not unusual - it's just that you don't really know what you are talking about, and extrapolate your dislike to imply that the community is not strong.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Oh and by the way, I won't call a game, where I can solo a whole dungeon and kill the boss 2 levels above me also solo (and without breaking in sweat), hard by any means. Even in easy-as-cake EQ2 such a boss would wipe the floor with me. I will not call a game, where autoattack is an "I win" button even of mediocre difficulty. And neither will I call it community oriented.

Again you are taking the part of the game you have seen and assuming the whole game, including the endgame, is like that.

Personally I don't think there are any MMOs that are what I would deem difficult. Forced grouping to kill mobs is not difficulty. Slow levelling is not difficulty. Massive xp losses upon death even isn't really difficulty.

It's just an alternative playstyle, one that I am more than willing to give a chance. If only others were so open minded.

And out of interest (if you can say), what is in the combat model in VG to make it any more complex or difficult to play than WoW, or other MMOs? Your criticism there seems to me to apply to all MMOs.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I raid Monday to Thursday, and usually a couple on weekends. Many people in my guild have been doing this since soon after release. The guild as it stands has been together for about a year. And this is not unusual - it's just that you don't really know what you are talking about, and extrapolate your dislike to imply that the community is not strong.

Just like you extrapolate the circumstances of your guild to the whole WoW player base.

And I do not dislike WoW. I did not call it bad. I called it easy and I stick with that. And trying to satisfy you, I try to state more precisely: "The part of WoW, that I know, which mainly consists of the first half of the level range, I consider as very easy and not appealing to try out the second half. The opinion of others about the rest of the game varies. Some say, it remains that easy and the endgame is bland with only a couple of raids to do. Others, including DrSpike, say, that the raiding endgame is hard. They forgot to answer the question about the number of different raids, however."

This should be more political correct.

[DrSpike]

I do extrapolate, but with reason, since I observe a lot of stable guilds other than mine. That's on my server true, but I have no reason to think it's different for others. Your assertion that WoW somehow has 6 million+ subscribers by simply attracting lots of people in the short term but not having a community of long term players is just flat out wrong.

I'm not sure your fascination with the numbers of raids, but I'll answer that too. There are 7. Most guilds split time between farming a raid where you know the bosses and need their loot, and learning bosses in a new and harder instance, with better loot. So it's similar raids each week, but you are always tackling new content and learning. This is what keeps people playing. The difficulty level is such that very very few guilds in the game have completed both tier 2 raids. Sounds easy still?

It's fine if endgame raiding isn't your thing, or WoW isn't your thing, but you can use proper reasons, because I know from previous discussions you have them. You don't like the fast levelling in the pre-endgame, that's understandable. You don't like the 'average' person from the playerbase - this is understandable too. You don't like the predominantly solo nature of the pre-endgame content - again fine. In part as you know I agree - I consider the game up to 40 fun whilst everything is fresh, but 40-60 rather dull. The real game begins at 60 though, and IIRC you haven't seen any of that.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I do extrapolate, but with reason, since I observe a lot of stable guilds other than mine. That's on my server true, but I have no reason to think it's different for others. Your assertion that WoW somehow has 6 million+ subscribers by simply attracting lots of people in the short term but not having a community of long term players is just flat out wrong.

I used the word "most" instead of "all" for a reason. In what relation is the number of players in raiding guilds to the total number of over 6 million subscribers? Is it in representative regions?

I'm not sure your fascination with the numbers of raids, but I'll answer that too. There are 7. Most guilds split time between farming a raid where you know the bosses and need their loot, and learning bosses in a new and harder instance, with better loot. So it's similar raids each week, but you are always tackling new content and learning. This is what keeps people playing. The difficulty level is such that very very few guilds in the game have completed both tier 2 raids. Sounds easy still?

It's not the fascination, it was pure interest. As you know I didn't make it to the WoW endgame and wanted to hear your opinion, because I heard more from other players, who flat out said that WoW has none. So I am glad to hear they are wrong, but 7 raids is not what I would call that much though. They'd better pack some more in the expansion, even EQ2 has more.

What concerns you last remark, no I don't call raiding easy, neither in WoW nor in EQ1/2 nor anywhere else. It demands some basic gear, it demands a bunch of people who know to play their classes and it demands a good raid leader. And lots of discipline. Perhaps some luck too, sometimes. Not easy. Not rocket science either.

It's the way to get there, that's dirt easy. I admit it can be fun, there's a reason why so many people play it. But the fun is over fast, and for a player, who's out for some challenge, it's getting boring - as it got for me.

I heard a nice statement lately from a MMOG forum, let me see if I can get together... "World of Warcraft is the absolutely best game tutorial ever made. Sadly it never evolves into a game." From my experience, that's telling it precisely.

It's fine if endgame raiding isn't your thing, ...

It is, I got my share of it in other games as I told you. But it alone does not a good game make.

...or WoW isn't your thing, but you can use proper reasons, because I know from previous discussions you have them. You don't like the fast levelling in the pre-endgame, that's understandable. You don't like the 'average' person from the playerbase - this is understandable too. You don't like the predominantly solo nature of the pre-endgame content - again fine. In part as you know I agree - I consider the game up to 40 fun whilst everything is fresh, but 40-60 rather dull. The real game begins at 60 though, and IIRC you haven't seen any of that.

If all you can do at 60 is these seven raids (and maybe some PvP, which not everyone is into), while the rest of the game is practically over, that sounds not too rich of a game, which didn't last very long so far.

[DrSpike]

As I said it isn't really the numbers of raids that's important though - it whether or not your guild runs out of content. As long as there are new encounters to learn, and ways to progress my character, I will happily play. Many people feel the same way. You have to admit that your earlier statements such as......

"Core players beat it (= reach the end game) very quickly and most then move on to other games. Communities do not last very long under these circumstances, at least not with the same (active)members"

.....were off the mark and based on misunderstanding or rumour. It just isn't true.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Personally I don't think there are any MMOs that are what I would deem difficult. Forced grouping to kill mobs is not difficulty. Slow levelling is not difficulty. Massive xp losses upon death even isn't really difficulty.

"Difficult" or "hard" are bad words for a game - it is neither a science nor is it labor. I prefer the word "challenging" for games.

Forced grouping (well, let's call it rewarded grouping as you won't be forced by any means) and slow levelling are community building features. The former gets them together and the latter makes sure they don't drift too far apart with temporarily different schedules or a vacation trip. It has to be compensated with a lot of content, to avoid that it feels like a grind - including raiding at all level ranges!

XP loss or debt is a form of death penalty. That and the fact that you have to retrieve your gear (which remains on your corpse) even from deep inside a dungeon a) make sure that do your damnedest to avoid to die and b) are again community supporting measures, because if you like your fiery sword of pwnage, you will muster an expeditional force to retrieve it from the dungeon quick.

Neither of them make a game challenging, however.

A game is challenging, if there is a relation (better: equation) between risk and reward. And while I'm inclined to believe you, that this relation is healthy in the WoW endgame, I can say from own experience, that it does not exist in the first half.

It's just an alternative playstyle, one that I am more than willing to give a chance. If only others were so open minded.

Yes. But I gave WoW a chance too.