a curious question about consoles and PC standardization

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by alva

2. Im not ready to build a PC. So add on a $69 build fee from the local PC shop - though that comes with a 2 year warranty as well.


Sounds pretty expensive, no nephew in the family that can do it for you for half the price?

No.

DO NOT buy integrated graphics!! It's a waste of money..and if you're unlucky you might have some conflicts when you do add a real card

We've discussed this at some length elsewhere.

To be honest, buying to upgrade later is, well, a myth. Buy what you need now and see what happens.
At the moment there are 2 kinds of ram (DDR1 and DDR2) and soon we'll see the introduction of DDR3, none of which are inter-changable.

Well what i need now could probably be accomodated well enough by a P3 600 mhz, with say 128 meg. That would give us two PCs in the family, would speed up websurfing, would let me play HOI, vickie, CK etc.

But it doesnt seem like the wisest approach.

Can't you get anything second hand? I just bought myself a 3 month old ATI 9800PRO for about 2/3 of new price.

I will have to ask the shop about that.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by snoopy369

There's nothing wrong with a manufacturer PC tho - I think that, if you're talking about the sort of upgrade you are, you'll notice enough increase that you don't need to worry about the fine-tune details

Thats right - ive got a P2. (actually a K6-2 - yup, little old luddite me got an AMD machine before it was fashionable) Anything i get will be a huge jump.

. Certainly if you can find something in a decent price, go for it - you'll get adequate performance for most purposes. Of course, any chance you get for gaming tuning - go for it; no integrated graphics if you can avoid it, but rather a dedicated card, and same for sound;

And im trying to get that, but balancing against price.

and choose more RAM (up to 1gb at least anyway) over faster processor speed. RAM makes more difference than processor speed at the point we are at - heck, FSB (Front Side Bus) and other 'invisible' pipeline speeds and flowthroughs that are 'invisible' to you because they won't tell you the speeds unless you really dig deeply, matter more than processor speed. A 3.2ghz processor is largely a waste compared to 2.8ghz if the speed info goes from memory to processor is 333mhz

Im not looking at anything above 2.8

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

DO NOT buy integrated graphics!! It's a waste of money..and if you're unlucky you might have some conflicts when you do add a real card

We've discussed this at some length elsewhere.

And Alva told you the same as I did.

[lord of the mark]

sigh!

LOTM - them pcs with integrated graphics are really cheap!

Spikey and Alva - Theyre junk.

LOTM - they can play anything other than an FPS thats out now. That gives me a backlog of games to play for years - I should have a new machine eventually.

Somebody - how about COTN (Children of the Nile)

Somebody else - they play COTN.

LOTM - Hah!

Spikey, et al - Its not just that, its that those machines are generally junky.

LOTM - Ok, let me try a shop


There now. Ive tried a shop. One thing Ive learned, is that even the quality name motherboards (ASUS, I think?) come with integrated sound and video in many cases. So AFAICT these are two SEPERATE issues (except that the ASUS etc motherboards, even if they come with integrated graphics, ALSO have a graphics slot). One issues is should I buy from a shop vs get a manufactured name brand PC. Second is what should my choices be as far as motherboards, video cards etc. Including whether I need to get a vid card rightaway or not.

Right now i have two questions to ask the shop. 1. have you had experience adding a vid card later to the motherboards you sell? (to address COT's issue about difficulty adding a vid card) 2. Do I save money (on the motherboard) by buying a motherboard WITHOUT integrated vid card?

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

There now. Ive tried a shop. One thing Ive learned, is that even the quality name motherboards (ASUS, I think?) come with integrated sound and video in many cases. So AFAICT these are two SEPERATE issues (except that the ASUS etc motherboards, even if they come with integrated graphics, ALSO have a graphics slot). One issues is should I buy from a shop vs get a manufactured name brand PC. Second is what should my choices be as far as motherboards, video cards etc. Including whether I need to get a vid card rightaway or not.

Right now i have two questions to ask the shop. 1. have you had experience adding a vid card later to the motherboards you sell? (to address COT's issue about difficulty adding a vid card) 2. Do I save money (on the motherboard) by buying a motherboard WITHOUT integrated vid card?

I bought a PC during the holidays. A nice Athlon 64 3000+ with 512 MB. Unfortunately, I choose a Asus mobo with integrated graphics (a S3 irc). I said to myself: I'll be able to upgrade it later. Well, I quickly found out that Neverwinter nights wouldn't run on it (it doesn't support S3 video cards). And I also discovered that I badly wanted to play Vampires: the masquerade bloodlines. So I bought an ATI 9550 with 256 MB ddr. That's when I rediscovered the pleasures of PC gaming...

First of all, the ATI made my system crash all the time. I'm not sure the mobo is the culprit here. You see, its one of those hard to pinpoint and hard to solve problems.

Second, each time I installed or removed the ATI, my integrated network card stopped working. I think its because my mobo thinks that I installed another network card, so it shuts down the integrated one. The only solution was to reinstall Windows. Major pain in the ass.

I finally removed the ATI and bought another network card and now it works just fine. But I can't play NWN nor Vampires...

So my advice: don't buy a cheap mobo. Otherwise, you'll regret it.

[alva]

That's the one thing one should not skimp on.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by nostromo


I bought a PC during the holidays. A nice Athlon 64 3000+ with 512 MB. Unfortunately, I choose a Asus mobo with integrated graphics (a S3 irc). I said to myself: I'll be able to upgrade it later. Well, I quickly found out that Neverwinter nights wouldn't run on it (it doesn't support S3 video cards). And I also discovered that I badly wanted to play Vampires: the masquerade bloodlines. So I bought an ATI 9550 with 256 MB ddr. That's when I rediscovered the pleasures of PC gaming...

First of all, the ATI made my system crash all the time. I'm not sure the mobo is the culprit here. You see, its one of those hard to pinpoint and hard to solve problems.

Second, each time I installed or removed the ATI, my integrated network card stopped working. I think its because my mobo thinks that I installed another network card, so it shuts down the integrated one. The only solution was to reinstall Windows. Major pain in the ass.

I finally removed the ATI and bought another network card and now it works just fine. But I can't play NWN nor Vampires...

So my advice: don't buy a cheap mobo. Otherwise, you'll regret it.

Dont buy an ASUS? Or dont buy a cheap ASUS? Or just dont buy an ASUS that has integrated graphics at all?

Are there really games out there that call for a specific Vid card, as opposed to just a certain amount of video memory?

COT had mentioned the issue of adding a vid card to a mobo that had integrated graphics - he had problems. I presume that by working with a shop, who have had experience, that would help.

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Dont buy an ASUS? Or dont buy a cheap ASUS? Or just dont buy an ASUS that has integrated graphics at all?

ASUS mobos are great. Just don't buy the integrated crap. At least not the one I bought. Buy a decent mobo (either ASUS or GIGABIT) and a decent vid card, like the ATI 9550. That way, you'll be able to play Civ 4 Moreover, the people who will build your system for you will make sure everything works ok.

Are there really games out there that call for a specific Vid card, as opposed to just a certain amount of video memory?

Like I said NWN simply doesn't work with S3 cards.

[Zero]

omg ddr 9000 ying yang plus k-7 integrated jizzle processor.

Who has time to figure out whether thats all the parts you want to play the friggin game, just buy an xbox 360 when it comes out.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by nostromo


ASUS mobos are great. Just don't buy the integrated crap. At least not the one I bought. Buy a decent mobo (either ASUS or GIGABIT) and a decent vid card, like the ATI 9550. That way, you'll be able to play Civ 4 Moreover, the people who will build your system for you will make sure everything works ok.

Like I said NWN simply doesn't work with S3 cards.

I still havent played Civ3. Ive got a large backlog of games I havent played but want to that require no particularly sophisticated hardware. I do intend to ask the shop about the Mobo, vid card, upgradeability, etc.

[DrSpike]

Thing is they'll just tell you the way it should work. You should (if there is an AGP slot) be able to add a graphics card. This does not ensure much lameness will not ensue when you actually try it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Thing is they'll just tell you the way it should work. You should (if there is an AGP slot) be able to add a graphics card. This does not ensure much lameness will not ensue when you actually try it.

Well I presume that since i would probably be buying the vid card from them, they would offer at least some hints on dealing with whatever problems result. I would also expect that if lameness has resulted in the past, they would have heard complaints. And perhaps could warn me in advance. I mean I presume this is a a quality place Im dealing with. If its not, Id just as soon go back to buying from Dell or Compaq - crap parts they may use, but at least they have some reputation to protect.

[DrSpike]

Would you like to buy some real estate?

[Nostromo]

Btw, I have a ASUS K8V-MX motherboard. So it has a Via chipset, with a S3 integrated graphics. Definitely not the best in integrated graphics. (My father has a HP with Nvidia integrated graphics. And he can run almost anything, even Rome: total war and Far Cry.) The K8V-MX is not even on ASUS's website. I know, it looks fishy, but I contacted ASUS and it exists.

[lord of the mark]

Cheapest suggested Intel system they list is as follows:

"The Intel® Celeron D 320 (2.4GHz)
Asus P4SP-MX:
Standard motherboard with a Parallel port, serial port, 1AGP slot, 3 PCI slots, 4 USB 2.0 ports in the back and 2 available for the front. Onboard video, Onboard sound and built in 10/100 ethernet port for network or broadband internet. "


Id have to check the ASUS site for the flavor the IG, I guess. The crap manufacturers at least have Intel IG. Seems the quality Mobo makers sometimes use crap IG.


checked the above uses a SiS chipset. Your thoughts? I take it you recommend Nvidia?