create your own Orange Revoultion

[child of Thor]

it worries me for some reason?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by child of Thor
it worries me for some reason?

I think on the whole this 4th wave of democratic revolutions has been a good thing and i think training like this empowers nonviolent change.

[DrSpike]

Not if you fire up HL2 afterwards to release your frustrations.

[DarkCloud]

this 4th wave of democratic revolutions has been a good thing

Well at least until Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan elect theocratic states that declare war on the 'precious' US

...So that's democracy there

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

Well at least until Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan elect theocratic states that declare war on the 'precious' US

...So that's democracy there

Duh, so, those authoritarian states have been around for years, and the grand result has been widespread radical Islamism, so like we should back up those authoritarian states to stay even longer? Like that really worked beautifully in Iran, didnt it? Besides, why should the Islamists in Egypt or Jordan declare war on the US? The Islamists in Turkey havent done so. And who knows if they would even win - the leading opposition guy in Egypt isnt an Islamist. As for KSA, if you think the govt there is not Islamist, or is a reliable ally of the US, well.......

But to get back on topic - wouldnt it be interesting to test some these ideas out in the context of a game like this? Sure change is scary, but isnt fear reduced by knowledge? Can we learn something from a game?

[child of Thor]

ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing

Well its just not my bag baby.

The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent.

We just have to look at what its proven happy to accept in terms of human suffering for the 'cause' in Iraq(and it WAS all about oil as that leaked document from the pentagon proved)

Also tied in closely with this gift of democracy is the finacial ties of american companies.

It just all stinks a bit to me - Imperalism which ever way you paint it.

I have no problem with trying to help people who genuinely want help in removing nasty boss-men, but the only way you can ever get world opinion to legitimise the approach is if there really are no strings attached.

So far these last few years the usa administration has done just about everything to not address these fears.

Sorry LotM - i think this just may be a wolf in sheeps clothing, so morally i don't want to dirty myself with it

EDit: sorry - this is starting to sound like me in the OT section, so i wont continue here as i dont have much to say in a gaming sense. Its too politicaly loaded for me.

If i've blown this out of proportion then i appologise I'm just very suspicious of anything that smells like a neo-con

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by child of Thor
ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing

Well its just not my bag baby.

The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent.

We just have to look at what its proven happy to accept in terms of human suffering for the 'cause' in Iraq(and it WAS all about oil as that leaked document from the pentagon proved)

Also tied in closely with this gift of democracy is the finacial ties of american companies.

It just all stinks a bit to me - Imperalism which ever way you paint it.

I have no problem with trying to help people who genuinely want help in removing nasty boss-men, but the only way you can ever get world opinion to legitimise the approach is if there really are no strings attached.

So far these last few years the usa administration has done just about everything to not address these fears.

Sorry LotM - i think this just may be a wolf in sheeps clothing, so morally i don't want to dirty myself with it

EDit: sorry - this is starting to sound like me in the OT section, so i wont continue here as i dont have much to say in a gaming sense. Its too politicaly loaded for me.

If i've blown this out of proportion then i appologise I'm just very suspicious of anything that smells like a neo-con

We ***** and moan about games that encourage militarism, and heres a game about peaceful change and we ***** and moan about it too, cause the US has supported some peaceful democratic revolutions? No strings - the new govt in Ukraine is removing its troops from Iraq, and the democratic govt in Serbia never supported the US on Iraq. Not everything is about Iraq. If you think everything the US does is suspicious, cause its done by the US - or even when the locals do it, cause the US likes it - well you ARE in a bad place, my friend. Or even if you a suspicious of anything cause the neocons like it. Youve let your dislike for neocons warp you into opposing the hopes of many peoples.

BTW, did you know that the govt funded institutions in the US that promote democracy are four - one associated with each political party, one with business and one with labor - thats two of them that DONT share neocon ideology, but helped struggling democrats in the Ukraine and elsewhere.

Did you read the stuff on the site i linked to?

And BTW, your Kristol quote is out of context Im sure.

[lord of the mark]

heres a link to the international center on non-violent conflict, the sponsors of this game, so you can judge for yourself.

http://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/index_HTML.htm

[child of Thor]

Thank you for the link and having patience

I'll go have a look and see - and i did look at your link, it was all just talking about the stuff in game terms etc, nothing political at all. That was just the alarm bells that rang while i was reading it in the context of our world today - thats all.

And the Kristol quote was from his own mouth on the program they did here in the uk(info in the link in my sig) - and the program makers may well have taken it out of context. I still didn't like it much

Imran has tried to help me see the neo-cons in a different light, but i just don't like the undercurrent of intolerance and superiority that runs through much of the theory, and more importantly their actions.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Thank you for the link and having patience

I'll go have a look and see - and i did look at your link, it was all just talking about the stuff in game terms etc, nothing political at all. That was just the alarm bells that rang while i was reading it in the context of our world today - thats all.

And the Kristol quote was from his own mouth on the program they did here in the uk(info in the link in my sig) - and the program makers may well have taken it out of context. I still didn't like it much

Imran has tried to help me see the neo-cons in a different light, but i just don't like the undercurrent of intolerance and superiority that runs through much of the theory, and more importantly their actions.

what is "the chaos" - Statement could mean A. Chaos that undermines totalitarian regimes - good chaos or it could mean - The liberal idea of individual freedom causes undesirable chaos, and therefore societies with individual freedom ALSO need law and order, religion, tradition, and other stuff neo-cons like. Your implication, that it means Kristol wants an end to individual freedom, is inconsistent with both his writings and his actions.

By intolerance do you mean their willingness to ally with certain elements of the religious right on issues like abortion and gay marriage? I share your discomfort with that, and thats one reason (among others) why i do not consider myself a neocon, despite agreement with many of their forieign policy approaches. Or do you mean just a tone of intolerance - there I would say its an individual thing, and I would also say I find it as bad or worse among the self proclaimed adversaries of the neocons, including many in the UK left. Note also there is ideological diversity within the neocon camp - the views of James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney are not the same as those of William Kristol or Paul Wolfowitz. Also some are called neocons, like Donald Rumsfeld, who have never really been part of the neocon movement.


To return to topic, of course the site was about game issues - Breakaway is a game company - the question is 1 - are they modeling the situation well 2. Will there game be useful to those trying achieve non-violent democratic change? as for politics, the only politics in it was that some of the activists behind it are Serb students who helped bring down Slobo - was that what offended you?

[lord of the mark]

ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing

because I said democratization, how does that make it neocon - there ARE some folks here in the USA who support democracy promotion who are NOT neocons. Also a certain Prime Minister in the UK.

Well its just not my bag baby.

No problem, man.

The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent.

whos the they? The Serbs who overthrew Slobo are somehow representatives of the invasion of Iraq, which took place AFTER their revolution? Havent some opponents of the Iraq war said Saddam SHOULD have been overthrown by the Iraqi people, thereby avoiding war? Why is a game intended to take learnings from Serbia and Georgia, and help people do JUST THAT be implicated in something totally different? Just because neocons ALSO like the wave of democratization? well I got news for you - some neocons have decided they want the US to be less dependent on imported oil, and are supporting hybrid vehicles for that purpose? Are you going to be suspicious of hybrid vehicles cause neocons like it?

[DrSpike]

*cough* Other Games *cough*

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
*cough* Other Games *cough*

Oh yeah - to get back "on topic" afaik this game about political change will NOT feature smelly wood elves. Or cybering for pizza.

[DrSpike]

That's better.

[child of Thor]

yes yes - cybering neo-cons smelling of pizza is not cool

helping people who would like to try democracy out, no strings attached is cool, as is playing games

[LotM - i may at some point soonish, start up a 'shoot down my neo-con paranoia' type thread in OT, where i will lay out why i dont trust the neo-con movement as far as i can throw it etc, i'll try to provide links, info etc to back up my recently formed view on the whole thing]