AI Stealth Cheese Tactics, difficulty and personalitys

[DakaSha]

Hey first off let me say that it seems like youve done a great job. I actually have a 4x to play right now :P

One of the main reasons i cant play any other of these games is because of the horrid AI. Im aware that the AI has to cheat to be a challenge but i absolutely hate when its just outright retarded (things like not being able to ferry units, not using stealth units etc.. basically not even playing the same game as the human. Oh and not starting war AT ALL like in CivIII and IV).

Also i dislike Galciv2's game play so that's out :P

Anyways: I started playing a game and was very presently surprised up until about 1800BC. I decided to start over simply because I had learned some important things about the game. But before doing so i went into to cheat mode to check out how the AI was doing.

It was awesome. All 31 nations were actually building city's, they were growing... they were using ships to transport units. People were at war. yay!

The only thing is that they were (esp the biggest ones) spamming the hell out of slavers... Hey im all for slavers but it was kinda out of hand.

This was on "King" difficulty btw. (wtf... i mean hard...)

So my questions are: Is this something thats gonna be happening the whole game? A constant barrage of stealth units? Effective AI is great but cheese AI wouldn't be much fun. I just would like to see some actual tanks,infantry,swordsmen too :P

Does the difficulty change the way the AI plays? Or does it just give it the usual bonuses?

And do the personality's shown in the intelligence screen mean anything? Does the AI play differently?


Thanks for clearing this up for me


--edit--

Btw threatening nations with war to get their map was pretty easy. Its not like i have really play tested this but 2 nations that were definitely stronger then me (including the one with the overall highest ranking) gave me their map after i threatened with war. Didn't try anything else

[Martin Gühmann]

The only thing is that they were (esp the biggest ones) spamming the hell out of slavers... Hey im all for slavers but it was kinda out of hand.

What do you mean by spamming? The civs should build 6 slavers and then build something else. Of course, if they go against the weaker civs they should capture a lot of slaves, especially if those don't have city walls.

This was on "King" difficulty btw. (wtf... i mean hard...)

Yeah, I should rename it to King.

So my questions are: Is this something thats gonna be happening the whole game? A constant barrage of stealth units? Effective AI is great but cheese AI wouldn't be much fun. I just would like to see some actual tanks,infantry,swordsmen too :P

The AI should build it all itself, well unless you enabled some cheats from the userprofile.txt, but the AI should not need this kind of help. Well, in the early game, I don't see so much units for war either, that maybe because the AI has also to build up its empire, so one way would be to reduce unit costs.

Does the difficulty change the way the AI plays? Or does it just give it the usual bonuses?

Well, it just gives the usual boni like cheaper techs, units, etc. Of course, on the lower level you have to pay less, than standard. Otherwise the AI should play the same, of course it does not play the same because it has less units.

And do the personality's shown in the intelligence screen mean anything? Does the AI play differently?

Yes, there are differences between those AIs, some want to defend their cities with more units, some like slavers and others like to free slaves, they chose different governments, and they should also research the techs in a different order, but they don't.

Btw threatening nations with war to get their map was pretty easy. Its not like i have really play tested this but 2 nations that were definitely stronger then me (including the one with the overall highest ranking) gave me their map after i threatened with war. Didn't try anything else

That's indeed a problem, but I haven't looked into it.

-Martin

[DakaSha]

What do you mean by spamming? The civs should build 6 slavers and then build something else. Of course, if they go against the weaker civs they should capture a lot of slaves, especially if those don't have city walls.



Yeah, I should rename it to King.



The AI should build it all itself, well unless you enabled some cheats from the userprofile.txt, but the AI should not need this kind of help. Well, in the early game, I don't see so much units for war either, that maybe because the AI has also to build up its empire, so one way would be to reduce unit costs.



Well, it just gives the usual boni like cheaper techs, units, etc. Of course, on the lower level you have to pay less, than standard. Otherwise the AI should play the same, of course it does not play the same because it has less units.



Yes, there are differences between those AIs, some want to defend their cities with more units, some like slavers and others like to free slaves, they chose different governments, and they should also research the techs in a different order, but they don't.



That's indeed a problem, but I haven't looked into it.

-Martin

Heh i started another game and was destroyed by a large army of hoplites fairly early on so i guess its not a huge problem :P

I can pretty much positively say that Russia had quite a few more then 6 slavers in that last game though ^^ Dont have a save anymore though

Well anyways there obviously still some problems but all in all this seems pretty playable so far. keep up the good work. if I had any experience
in c++ i could prob sqeeze in some tim to help out but as t is i only just started with c# :P

[Martin Gühmann]

Heh i started another game and was destroyed by a large army of hoplites fairly early on so i guess its not a huge problem :P

So, you lost.

I can pretty much positively say that Russia had quite a few more then 6 slavers in that last game though ^^ Dont have a save anymore though

Well, I forgot to say that the AI puts slavers into the build queues, until it has built six.

Well anyways there obviously still some problems

Can you name them?

if I had any experience in c++ i could prob sqeeze in some tim to help out but as t is i only just started with c# :P

So than learn some c++. By the way, what programming languages do you know?

-Martin

[DakaSha]

So, you lost.



Well, I forgot to say that the AI puts slavers into the build queues, until it has built six.



Can you name them?



So than learn some c++. By the way, what programming languages do you know?

-Martin

Some of the problems are native to ctp2 design which im now remembering from back when it came out.. things such as the tech tree being crap. (i still have to play a full game to be sure but it already seems pretty dumb)

Yesterday a city of mine was rioting and when i clicked on optimize sliders the riot just disappeared. I loaded the autosave after that since i cant stand exploiting bugs :P

I already mentioned the empire manager slider bug.

loading a game takes extremely long. I am playing with 31 nations.. maybe that has something to do with it.. still its a really long time.

There is more that i have seen so far but i just woke up. ill let you know about everything i see.

(edit: and I cant build the abolitionist despite having the required tech for it...)

Im not criticizing you btw. As i said i think youve made the game playable which is already a big deal.


And seriously i dont feel like learning C++ :P The only "real" language im any good at is C# (And im using XNA). Im just starting out but really dont have any problem with it but id rather not start on C++ now. (Im also fluent in german :P )

I guess I could also pick up java rather quickly if I chose to learn it.


And on a side note: There is AE Mod in the scenarios list. But when i try to start a game with it it crashes because it cannot find some of the strategys

"STRATEGY_ISLAND_MILITARIST" for example

[hexagonian]

If you do not want stealth units in your setup (or any particular unit), you can do the following...

You can deactivate them by opening the (various) unit.txt files (depending on your setup, you may have several unit.txt files if you also have mods installed) and for each unit you do not want, add the following line to the entry

CantBuild


(and take a look at Cradle, for a good mod)

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=12

================

[DakaSha]

so your mod is compatible with the improved AI?

--edit--

ok i guess it is.. ooooweeee this looks nice. the mix of this mod and the AE looks like it could be pretty cool. hope i can play without it crashing as mentioned in some of the threads here :P

what exactly does the maximum number of civilizations mean in regard to the starting number?

If the maximum is higher are new civilizations spawned during game time?

[DakaSha]

uhm nope... crash during AI turn at around 1800BC...

When i load same thing happens.

So is there anything i can do about this or is this just unplayable?

[Martin Gühmann]

Some of the problems are native to ctp2 design which im now remembering from back when it came out.. things such as the tech tree being crap. (i still have to play a full game to be sure but it already seems pretty dumb)

So, if you want to help you can design a better tech tree, and implement it, the data to change is in advance.txt.

Yesterday a city of mine was rioting and when i clicked on optimize sliders the riot just disappeared. I loaded the autosave after that since i cant stand exploiting bugs :P

Of course the rioting goes away, that is the whole point about optimizing the sliders, to max out food, production, and gold, and make sure that none of your cities riots. Well, of course you can fix the problem yourself by manually adjusting the sliders or by adding some entertainers to a rioting city.

loading a game takes extremely long. I am playing with 31 nations.. maybe that has something to do with it.. still its a really long time.

Well, it has to create a lot of objects in the memory, maybe I can speed it up, but actually speeding up the AI during the game has higher priority, so I can test the game faster. And another thing is to reduce memory usage, since that may be also a problem with so many civs and big maps, that your computer simply runs out of memory.

There is more that i have seen so far but i just woke up. ill let you know about everything i see.

Keep it coming.

(edit: and I cant build the abolitionist despite having the required tech for it...)

Actually not a bug you cannot build abolitionists if you have slavers or slaves.

Im not criticizing you btw. As i said i think youve made the game playable which is already a big deal.

Did you criticize me? I just asked, because I know that there is still some stuff to fix. I was just wondering what you have found, and what you have found that I haven't found.

And seriously i dont feel like learning C++ :P The only "real" language im any good at is C# (And im using XNA). Im just starting out but really dont have any problem with it but id rather not start on C++ now.

Well, it was worth a trial.

(Im also fluent in german :P )

The language in this forum is English, and this forum lives from it that here are many people talking about many things and that they can understand each other.

I guess I could also pick up java rather quickly if I chose to learn it.

Well, then I guess that you could also pick up c++ very quickly. At least you could add some little things, except that you would have to learn that you have to clean up your memory yourself.

And on a side note: There is AE Mod in the scenarios list. But when i try to start a game with it it crashes because it cannot find some of the strategys

"STRATEGY_ISLAND_MILITARIST" for example

Actually it does not crash, it just switches to the desktop to tell you some things and then you can load the game.

Anyway, I tend to forget about the AE Mod. So you have just reported one problem.

what exactly does the maximum number of civilizations mean in regard to the starting number?

If the maximum is higher are new civilizations spawned during game time?

If the maximum number of civ is higher, than the number of civs in the game then new civs are added to the game, for instance after a slave uprising, or due to low happiness, or because of some evil spies.

uhm nope... crash during AI turn at around 1800BC...

When i load same thing happens.

So is there anything i can do about this or is this just unplayable?

So, do you have a save game, a crash.txt and can you tell me the mod you are using?

-Martin

[DakaSha]

Of course the rioting goes away, that is the whole point about optimizing the sliders, to max out food, production, and gold, and make sure that none of your cities riots. Well, of course you can fix the problem yourself by manually adjusting the sliders or by adding some entertainers to a rioting city.

No it goes away immediately! I know how the sliders work. What I mean is that i clicked on the optimize button and it made the city immediately not riot anymore. So i didn't even have to increase entertainers

Well, it has to create a lot of objects in the memory, maybe I can speed it up, but actually speeding up the AI during the game has higher priority, so I can test the game faster. And another thing is to reduce memory usage, since that may be also a problem with so many civs and big maps, that your computer simply runs out of memory.

Makes sense

Actually not a bug you cannot build abolitionists if you have slavers or slaves.

Also makes sense. But should prob be in the GL, no?

If the maximum number of civ is higher, than the number of civs in the game then new civs are added to the game, for instance after a slave uprising, or due to low happiness, or because of some evil spies.

ah ok

So, do you have a save game, a crash.txt and can you tell me the mod you are using?

Its Cradle III and im not getting any kind of text. Except if you possibly mean the windows one which i doubt. (and strangely only pops up about 25%-50% of the time) (edit: enabled logs now )

It just crashes to desktop without warning. I have confirmed that is due to a specific nation (meaning that i think i can technically stop it from happening with the cheat thing.. which is no fun)

Im starting to run some AI only games to recreate it. then i use cheat to see whats causing it. ill let you & the creator know if i find anything. I really want to play it :P

--edit--

posting in relevant thread

[hexagonian]

I'm not sure how stable Cradle III is with the current Source Code project. The version of Cradle that is posted was calibrated with an earlier build of the Source Code (approx. May 09). Because there is not a huge audience or fan input for Cradle anymore, I don't do a lot of updating to the mod either. In fact, I probably will not update my personal Cradle setup with the current Source Code, just because the build I have now works for me.

My last 2 Cradle games have been with this earlier Source Code build, and I have not run into any problems. This does not mean that there isn't the capability of a crash though because of the complexity of the mod itself. It's just that I tend to play slowly and in spurts. Couple that with the fact that there is little outside fan input for Cradle, and there is little desire for me to devote any time to bug hunts.

The non-source code Cradle III setup seems to be the safer bet to play in terms of stability. You will have to do a separate install for CTP2 if you do not want to use the Source Code project. Overall, there probably is not a great deal of difference between Cradle default and Cradle Source Code. The Source Code has a lot of nice features, but they end up being the icing on the Cradle cake, IMO.

You could try playing with 24 civs instead of 32. Normally I play with 12-16, which is a nice balance. Since I play with a house rule of no city razing, this means that all expansion is capped to a degree too, so it is impossible to hit all the civs anyhow. Playing with so many accomplishes little in the way of gameplay, and it will bog down the speed of the game anyhow.

=====

[DakaSha]

heh please check the other thread. i think i found the (or at least a) problem