AE Scenario Conversion: Cradle

[EPW]

its the Apolyton edition btw.

- Why the different colors on the icons for slaves in cities?

You know whose civ's pops you've captured, nothing beyond that.

[Maquiladora]

- Combat is harder with stealth units. I lost slingers against Priests twice because I was not used to the new rules. That never happened in earlier Cradle...detect a Priest or any stealth units, and they were roadkill.

You might need to tweak those weaker defensive units a little now. A unit will only die instantly on new combat with 0 defence.

I also noticed yesterday that non-settler units with 0 attack can't come from ruins. I'm thinking of changing that to allow things like scouts or other things you might want.

- As much as I do not like the production loss when switching items, it does make the game deeper, and it requires more forethought. So I will adapt...

As far as I know the AI doesn't switch much, if at all, so it's a win win addition.

BTW two other things regarding cities and stored production:

- A city's stored production is now cleared when captured.

- If a city queue is empty at the beginning of the turn, and the city has stored production, it will lose a % (the same production penalty %) of stored production each turn the queue is empty.

[hexagonian]

You might need to tweak those weaker defensive units a little now. A unit will only die instantly on new combat with 0 defence.

Actually I may keep it the way it is now...Makes things a little more interesting.

1. A city's stored production is now cleared when captured.

2. If a city queue is empty at the beginning of the turn, and the city has stored production, it will lose a % (the same production penalty %) of stored production each turn the queue is empty.

1. Not a huge deal, although getting the production was a nice little benefit...usually some buildings were also destroyed, so I viewed that production bonus as plunder.

2. I noticed that already...gotta be careful on watching my queues.

[Maquiladora]

I was thinking about adding an option in const.txt to allow limiting the changing of PW tax to a certain number of turns, like military readiness. Say you have to wait 10 turns each time you change PW tax, like a policy shift. So you can't switch in and out of 100% PW so often to get things done quick, you have to make a choice.

PW required for healing units is also an excellent idea. That should be added to the source somehow, but NOT in the rules window.

[EPW]

I was thinking about adding an option in const.txt to allow limiting the changing of PW tax to a certain number of turns, like military readiness. Say you have to wait 10 turns each time you change PW tax, like a policy shift. So you can't switch in and out of 100% PW so often to get things done quick, you have to make a choice.

Or limit the % you can change each turn. With a counter or something.

PW required for healing units is also an excellent idea. That should be added to the source somehow, but NOT in the rules window.

Oh yes, it's an excellent idea to add my least favorite feature from AOM to the source code project.

Okay Okay, it makes sense. But why not just do it through military support cost? There is an interface already there, and you could make it list units that are healding and list the production penalty for that turn. And in the future it could also show the amount of population needed to heal the unit, if that's ever added.

[Maquiladora]

Okay Okay, it makes sense. But why not just do it through military support cost? There is an interface already there, and you could make it list units that are healding and list the production penalty for that turn. And in the future it could also show the amount of population needed to heal the unit, if that's ever added.

Because PW is different from production. That's the reason PW healing is a good idea, because it forces a choice on the player. To heal the units you have and produce less, or vice versa. It's not exactly how I would like it to work, but it's pretty good.

I've also been thinking about the balance of production. I think production upkeep heavily tips the value of production far higher than food or commerce, and I think that needs changing somehow.

It's possible to remove production upkeep and just use gold savings support, but we don't have the extra functionality for gold support yet. Now you just run out of gold and stay at 0 gold. That's something to do next.

[EPW]

Because PW is different from production.

not really, its just stored production

[Maquiladora]

If you just deduct more production for healing the player doesn't have to make any choice, the units will be healed regardless. Why not just increase upkeep in that case.

PW healing is about the player having to decide how much PW tax to collect, if any. For example stockpiling PW before going to war.

[EPW]

If you just deduct more production for healing the player doesn't have to make any choice, the units will be healed regardless. Why not just increase upkeep in that case.

PW healing is about the player having to decide how much PW tax to collect, if any. For example stockpiling PW before going to war.

Why does there need to be a choice? You are already moving a dozen stacks around and building and bringing in reinforcements. Its already the slowest part of the game. Why bog it down with pw management?

[Maquiladora]

Why does there need to be a choice?

Eh, because no choice equals boring game play?

PW healing forces the player to make a choice between producing more and healing. I think that's an interesting choice.

You are already moving a dozen stacks around and building and bringing in reinforcements. Its already the slowest part of the game. Why bog it down with pw management?

Thinking about how much PW tax you need will be more important, and changing PW tax takes seconds. That's a pretty good balance to me. I don't see where the bogging down would appear.

[BureauBert]

As a by-product of my work on MoT-Mod I made a scenario version of Cradle (III, Epic, 2300 AD), plus Better Settling, plus increased mapsizes.

As MoT-Mod itself this one tends to CTD without leaving anything in crash.txt -- but not always. I checked everything that has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but with no better result.

I am providing this version for testing in my crashtest versions download section

[hexagonian]

Never seen this...

Something interesting to report.

Playing Cradle III, gov. specific units, 12 civs, huge maps. I'm using an older version of the Source Code (probably about 10 months old), though with Frenzy activated.

Playing as Romans, my two immediate neighbors (Han to the west/south, Shang to the east/south) I'm currently expanding against the Shang, and only have defensive token forces on the Han front because they really haven't threatened me.

House rule...no city razing and I am above my cap.

In one turn... (and this is the cool event)

1. Ostia - The Han attack Ostia with a lone House Archer, then with TWO full stacks. The stacks have mixture of Horse Archers and also Elite Hoplites. This is important because they are actually gaining elites on some other front, and this is the first game I have seen the AI attack a city with multiple stacks on a turn. It actually has happened before in this game too. The city holds...

2. Agrippa - The same turn, the Han also throws a 12-stack of Horse archers against that city and takes it, because it was lightly defended. What is nice to see is that Horse Archers are stealth units, and although they are weak and expensive, they have a lot of mobility. It seems the AI knows how to use them.

I now need to patrol a lot more...

[hexagonian]

Another tidbit...

After retaking Agrippa, I was able to get a peace deal with the Han, and was able (after buttering them up with gifts and Embassy parties) to broker some tech trades with them. This is nice to see, because all I can assume is that this is the effect of the Source Code. In the past, tech trading never seemed to happen in Cradle.

The Han have also respected the no trespassing agreement. This seems to be working better in the Source Code...I've noticed this effect in other SC/Cradle games too.

I have continued my war against the Shang...although facing praetorians with hypastpists, I have held mainly because I do not allow them to form up into large stacks. I have absorbed several assaults on my border cities, and took one city that took 3 (12 unit) stacks.

Overall, the game seems to be more in line with what I had always hoped to see in CTP2...a little more nuanced in terms of diplomacy (it actually seems to work now, although the overall effect seems to make the game easier). Diplomacy is still not at the level of civ4, in terms of options though.

Looking at this particular game, here are some additional thoughts.

1. Rome is very powerful (but this is intentional by design). They have a nice production bonus, and can generate a lot of gold because of their 1/2 priced Latifundias. And when they hit their Golden Age, they really roll.
2. Looking at some of the other civs in the game, they seem to be tracking as intended, especially the Minoans, who started very strong and then seemed to fade.
3. In this particular map, I had a long northern sea border, which made things even easier...all forces can be concentrated to the south.


I am currently laying the groundwork for some civ-specific units, as well as additional Great Houses although everything is in the planning stages at this point in time.

=H=E=X=

[hexagonian]

I ended the game at 1000AD, because I had the inside track to a religious victory (which was my goal for this game anyhow). Although I did not have the required tech (Printing Press), I was confident that I would get to it. Actually, by the time I got to the required tech I needed to create Gutenbergs Bible, there would have been at least 4 civs with the points needed, but I was stockpiling gold and making a beeline to the tech, and I already had a slight tech advantage. (A captured Cyrus Cylinder Wonder gave me all tech info for all civs, otherwise I would be running blind and probably would be inclined to see it through).

Inca is running first, then me, and then the Shang. We are all running very close, but I managed to split the Shang in half too - it was costly though. Inca lands are far away, but like I said, my goal was the religious victory, and I do not want to invest 50-70 more turns into the game. The Source Code tends to make turn processing longer after you reach 0 AD on my older computer.

One thing I do need to adjust is bombarding...it's probably too strong. I assembled 3 full stacks of Onagers and parked them on the hottest border, then used them to weaken any invaders, as well as bombard cities into rubble.

Couple that with the above religious status and it was pointless to continue...the game was won.

And I'm already planning for civ-specific units, so it's time to play in the sandbox again...


Hex
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