DESIGN: Terrain part II - First Official Source Code Patch

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
IIRC, the AI can't handle terraforming.

Actual the AI can terraform but not very well, in the default game the AI is supposed to terraform everything that is supposed to be a dead tile into plains, and everything that is a desert, tundra or glacier to grassland and swamps should be terraformed to hills. And the best is first the AI puts an improvement onto that terrain if available and then it terraforms even if the terraform option is available.

Currently my AI terraforms two or three tiles around a forest only city to grassland, if this city needs more food. And these few tiles are enough. And of course grassland is not hardencoded, it is the best choice of food gain per spent PW. Unfortunatly to do the same with production and commerce is more complicated as I have to take into account possible tile improvements as well. Currently the food related tile improvement behaviour is fine. At least a step forward. And also the AI related road building is now much better even if there should be still some imprvements made. But in that state I think I can release it as a step forward.

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
A couple of years ago a bloke figured out what changes you had to make to the text files to get the AI to terraform. But I think the problem was that once you got it started, it would keep terraforming until everything turned into grassland.

To make this work some slic was needed to prevent the AI from terraforming goods and actual I didn't see any need to offer something else then grassland, as the original AI selects the best tile improvement on terrain values and these values are all the same for each tile of the same type, therefore you see that the original AI builds always food improvements on grassland and plains and commerce improvements on dessert. Well that might be difference with the presence of rivers, but then a grassland tile with river belongs to another type than a graslland tile without river.

-Martin

[Maquiladora]

Make Farms on Grasslands produce an extra +5 food compared to other farms.

Which is what I suggested in my opening post. I thought you might have another idea.

Yep, but as it is, commerce posts on plains aren't that good. You're generally better off putting it into something else, and using scientists. Specialists are very powerful as it stands and everyone knows that.

As I said, as long as scientists are weaker trading posts will be worth it.

But for now we can say these would be good changes to terrain.txt, adding in all changes from SAP2 apart from base beaches and shallow/deep water tiles have at least 5 production instead:

Food/Production/Commerce
Was > Is now

River
Used to give +5/+5/+5 now only gives +5/+0/+5

Forest
Add advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Add cost 800 > 200
Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Remove time 1 > 3
10/5/10 > 5/15/5

Plains
Add time 1 > 5

Tundra
Remove time 2 > 5
0/5/0 > 5/5/0

Glacier
Add advance adv. composites > gaia theory
Remove advance adv. composites > gaia theory
Remove time 5 > 10

Grassland
Add advance toolmaking > agriculture
Add time 1 > 5
Remove advance toolmaking > agriculture

Desert
Add advance agri. rev > conservation
Remove advance agri. rev > conservation
Remove time 1 > 7
Remove cost 400 > 800
0/0/5 > 0/10/5

Swamp
Remove advance agri. rev > indus. rev.
Remove time 1 > 5
Remove cost 400 > 800

Jungle
Add advance agri. rev. > indus. rev
Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Remove time 1 > 3
Remove cost 200 > 400
5/10/5 > 10/10/5

Mountain
Add time 5 > 10
Remove time 5 > 10
0/15/10 > 0/15/5

Hill
Add time 2 > 10
Remove time 3 > 10
Remove cost 600 > 1000
5/10/10 > 5/10/5

Shallow Water
10/10/5 > 10/5/10

Deep Water
10/10/5 > 10/5/10

Submarine Volcano
0/25/15 > 10/20/10

Beach
10/10/10 > 10/5/10

Continental Shelf
5/10/5 > 10/5/10

Sand Dunes
Add time 2 > 10
Remove time 3 > 10
Remove cost 600 > 1000
Movement 2 > 3

Desert Mountain
Add time 5 > 10
Remove time 5 > 10
0/10/10 > 0/15/5

Polar Hill
Add time 2 > 10
Remove time 3 > 10
Remove cost 600 > 1000
0/5/5 > 0/10/5
Movement 2 > 3

Polar Mountain
Add time 5 > 10
Remove time 5 > 10
0/10/5 > 0/15/5

Kelp Bed
15/10/5 > 15/5/10

Coral Reef
10/15/5 > 10/10/10

To add another point into the discussion, what about defence values? I have always thought they are too low and only have any significant effect on mountains +100% defence. I suggested doubling them all because combat uses attack and defence for both the attacker and the defending unit each round for units on the front line, so defence is only half of the important stats, whereas in civ2 a unit only uses its defence stat when defending, and yet most of civ2 terrain defence modifiers are the same and sometimes even higher then CtP2 values.

I would also make fortifying a unit +100% defence not 50, but thats another discussion.

It would also make it easier to defend cities, fortified or on good defensive terrain, which can only be a good thing.

edit: forgot changes to terraforming advances

[EPW]

Re: DESIGN: Terrain part II - First Official Source Code Patch

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Terrain Values part I.

Instead I think we should look into improving grassland via another part of the game. To quote Mr Baggins in the original thread "Its about PW in CTP2, not whales or cows.". Plains have more production so can produce more public works and so build more farms quicker, which at the end is better than grassland. So what if we reduce the effect of farms on plains or increase it on grassland?

Your a genius Maq! How did you ever think of that most excellent solution!

[drulius]

I like the idea of retaining an "Activision Original" scenario, if only to provide a window on the improvements that have been made since the source code release. I have no opinion on terrain value tweaks since I've never played a mod, so I'll be holding any opinion until the playtest with the changes has been played some...

[Maquiladora]

Your a genius Maq! How did you ever think of that most excellent solution!

Was that your idea originally for the MP mod? If it was sorry I'll credit you next time I lose everything in a haze of ideas and testing, since sometimes it seems like I'm talking to myself details are irrelevent.

[Solver]

Which is what I suggested in my opening post. I thought you might have another idea.

Yep, your idea, but seems the best for me. Conjuring another bonus for them would also be nice, but that would be more complex, so is not the better solution anyway.

To add another point into the discussion, what about defence values? I have always thought they are too low and only have any significant effect on mountains +100% defence. I suggested doubling them all because combat uses attack and defence for both the attacker and the defending unit each round for units on the front line, so defence is only half of the important stats, whereas in civ2 a unit only uses its defence stat when defending, and yet most of civ2 terrain defence modifiers are the same and sometimes even higher then CtP2 values.

Agreed with the general idea. Making cities easier to defend - good. I would like to see a change, though, where units that defend in a battle are using their defensive value BOTH for attack and defense, that is, through the entire battle, which would, I think, make defensive stacks significantly stronger.

[Maquiladora]

Agreed with the general idea. Making cities easier to defend - good. I would like to see a change, though, where units that defend in a battle are using their defensive value BOTH for attack and defense, that is, through the entire battle, which would, I think, make defensive stacks significantly stronger.

We can come back to this in a units and general combat thread later, but my initial instinct is that the change Locutus originally mentioned for defenders to use their defence stat all of the time, although it's a good idea, seems like it might be too big of a leap for an initial release.

I'm looking into the DefenceCoef for governments at the moment but it doesn't seem to have any effect, that would be one massive and quick way to strengthen city defence also.

[Solver]

We can come back to this in a units and general combat thread later, but my initial instinct is that the change Locutus originally mentioned for defenders to use their defence stat all of the time, although it's a good idea, seems like it might be too big of a leap for an initial release.

Maybe you're right on that one, I can expect it to change the gameplay quite some, although probably in a positive way. But the idea itself should be near the top of new feautures to implement or test, IMO.

[Maquiladora]

So ive been testing all the values we agreed on (or those who actually posted did) and its all working well so far. Of course specialists still need to be weaker for these terrains to be balanced properly. Like scientists give +30 science, then why build a trading post for +10 (or more like +6 or +7 with tax) ? It would be perfect if the power of scientists could change through the ages, depending on the power of the current commerce improvements, then you can have 2 sources of science with neither ruling out the other.

But another thing I'd like to ask is: Should reverse terraforming be removed?

By reverse terraforming I mean creating mountains out of grassland or creating hills from grassland to place a mine on. Surely if these hills and mountains are artificial theyd be nothing worth mining for?

Then on from that I thought then why not have an order of logical terraforming, here is a quick list:

plains > grassland

grassland > swamp
grassland > forest
grassland > jungle
grassland > plains

mountain > hill

hill > grassland

forest > plains

jungle > plains
jungle > swamp

swamp > jungle
swamp > grassland

desert > plains

tundra > plains

glacier > tundra

desert mountain > sand dunes

sand dunes > desert

polar mountain > polar hill

polar hill > tundra

These listed are the only terraforming actions you can do, so if for example you wanted to change sand dunes to grassland you can only do it, sand dunes > desert > plains > grassland ?

[Ekmek]

the terraforming sounds good. Definetely remove reverse terraforming. And make it so terraforming comes much later in the game...except forest to plains that should be early in the game.

Also, depending how people feel, maybe add (later in the game) terraforming coast into a swamp. To add land mass like japan does etc.

[Lou Wigman]

Can I put a contrary view point?

I believe we need to distinguish between engineering type terraforming and climate terraforming. I also believe we should NOT allow the second.

Thus you can clear a forest, drain a swamp, level a hill and probably do the reverse. Might even allow transforming plain to grassland.

However terraforming a desert is a different matter. You can make a desert quite productive with the right kinds of improvements (irrigation). However it remains a desert. Deserts form in areas of low rainfall. Take a look at Phoenix in Arizona. Nice and lush and green. What happens if they stop applying the water?

Same goes for polar. Yes, you can clear the snow but next winter it comes right back!

Wouldn't it be better not to allow these changes? What sort of a world is it with no deserts anyhow?

A better option would be to create some new tile improvements targetted specifically at desert. What would be even better is if these tile improvements had an on-going maintenance cost!

[The Big Mc]

What about cloud seeding then. The technology we have at the moment only allows a small amount of extra rain but in the future maybe we can create large amounts of rain. And if I remember correctly deserts do have a lot of moisture in the air (and it is the moisture in the air which is deadly)

[Lou Wigman]

Cloud seeding is just another form of irrigation. Stop the cloud seeding and its back to square one.

Granted that if you plant enough trees then the rainfall will increase. This is due to the fact that trees transpire vast amounts of water which is put into the atmosphere. The reverse is also true. Remove enough trees and marginal land will become desert.

Climate is also affected by mountain ranges. Air rising to cross a mountain range cools causing condensation, i.e. rain. Once the air reaches the other side of the mountain it is devoid of moisture and hence there is a rain shadow. Coastal California gets rain but Nevada doesn't.

Alpha Centauri implemented this type of climate system.

On reflection I believe that plains and grassland should not be interchangeable either. Rather each has its own strengths and weaknesses that can be enhanced/altered by various tile improvements.

If plains & grassland are interchangeable then that removes a key ingredient in the decision making process. I think the game is potentially richer if this was not allowed. Play the cards that you are dealt!

[Maquiladora]

Big mc is right, a lot of terraforming acts should be allowed since the game goes way into the future.

But for earlier in the game the engineering acts of terraforming are a good rule to stick to.

About adding new tile imps, its not really something I want to do, at least not for rebalancing and improving the gameplay because I think we can do it without adding stuff and Tamerlin would blow his top

[The Big Mc]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Tamerlin would blow his top

I hope he does not see my underwater fort then.