Spy Vs Spy

[tyrantpimp]

This discussion of religion has me thinking that maybe we should allow some sort of special military unit to theocracies too. Im thinking fundamentalists 2 types one pre gunpowder one after. Then again i dunno could cause some play balance issues. Any thoughts on this one?

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by The Big Mc
i think that the buildings should help to protect you civ rather then help a enemy civ lets say for every ten clerics you have you get two from the temple.

Temples already provide a benefit to the builder: increased happiness (which should be made more profound, by altering happiness from entertainers.)

The system I'm suggesting provides a vulnerability for alternative government types, who use religious buildings to deal with happiness, so that Theocratic governments are viable.

While you could give free clerics for certain religious buildings, thats not really the point... all you do then is increase the requirement to build more missionaries.

Since you HAVE to build a temple (or other religious building) to be vulnerable... why include an innate defensive bonus?


As for the strength of Theocratic governments, I already posted a government list, which includes a proposal for a progression of Theocratic governments into modern ages (Endgame options part deux, if I remember correctly)

Essentially, I've already suggested making updated Theocratic style governments.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by tyrantpimp
This discussion of religion has me thinking that maybe we should allow some sort of special military unit to theocracies too. Im thinking fundamentalists 2 types one pre gunpowder one after. Then again i dunno could cause some play balance issues. Any thoughts on this one?

No reason why they'd be a problem... You'd just need to make them appropriately expensive.

I might suggest Crusaders for the Medieval period... an enhanced knight. Maybe... Hospitalier for Renaissance... and perhaps Fundamentalist for a modern Fundementalism government.

I think Cradle had some other religious units... IIRC.

They definitely add flavor... which I definitely support.

[MrBaggins]

Foreign influence, continued...

Politicism is essentially the counterpoint to religion in terms of influence, and would work in an almost identical manner...

Media would be its basis... so... the Printing Press, TV and Movie improvements... for example would be the the city improvements the provided the base influence.

Propaganda and Domestic Media would be the "offensive" and "defensive" build choices of Politicism.

You'd have alliances of "like" governments... so Communist nations might join political alliances... but not Theocracies and Republics... for example.

In fact, I think, for balance reasons, Theocracies shouldn't be able to use Propaganda... since they have their own form... Missionaries.

The same mutual advantage and defense concepts, that apply to a religious alliance, would apply to a political alliance.

The effects of politicism are basically the same as religion... a goal to control x% of the world population, with minimums, and unhappiness and unrest in cities where the nation is attacking a civ, with political influence in that city.

---

When you have competing systems, you need to be able to resolve conflicting situations.

Each city improvement is "worth" a certain amount of influence. A city has 1000 possible "points" of influence.

If you built a temple, it might be worth, say 200. Thus, you could have potentially 20% foreign influence in a city with just a temple.

A city can never have more than 100% possible influence, so even if you built all possible religious buildings, totalling, say 1200 "influence points", and there were no other influence buildings, you'd have 1000 total religious influence in the city, not 1200.

Religion, Commerce and Politics all coexist within the same influence pool, too.

If you had 800 Religion influence, from CI's, 200 from Commerce, and 400 from Politics, then that would total 1400 points.

The game would calculate, for that city, that there be (800/1400)*1000 Religious influence, (200/1400)*1000 Commercial and (400/1400)*1000 Political, for a total of

Religion Influence Pool 571
Commercial Influence Pool 143
Political Influence Pool 286

Figures round to the nearest digit, for each calculation. Final rounding to 1000 is done on the highest base value, rounding only if necessary.

To be continued...

Comments?

[tyrantpimp]

Sounds like the foundation of a workable system. Of course its just all too fair

I suggest some wonders be modified or added to tip the balance. Maybe some of the limited wonders you suggested in another thread. Perhaps there could be like a "vatican" or something similar once theres a certain % following a religion. Or maybe juice up some of the present religious wonders.

As usual anything that offers the possibility of more possibilities im all for

[The Big Mc]

what’s the pay off if we do this I think game victory would be to much but the make the other civs less likely to say not in negotiations sounds good.

[MrBaggins]

I don't see why victory is too much. Alliances would allow the AI to compete against the human, in these alternate victory types, because defence is simple (E.G. build more clergy/lawyers/domestic media) and cooperative.

I agree that having high influence short of victory should mean something in diplomacy too.

For example, if your cities have a large religious influence from your opponent negotiator, then a message could say in a diplomatic counteroffer... "Your religious populace want you to accept this proposal". You could ignore that, and refuse, but the cities would become more unhappy/have more unrest, as a result.

There are methods to prevent intrusion, but they take time to build, or have social impact.

As tyrantimp said... its pretty fair.

Diplomacy and alliances make the system more interesting, and fair... or unfair, depending on the situation, but thats as it should be.

I also do agree that wonders could indeed add different effects into the system, and certainly add interest.

[The Big Mc]

It think the more ways to victory there are the more newbie bodies will be piled on the side of the road.

[SMIFFGIG]

It think the more ways to victory there are the more newbie bodies will be piled on the side of the road.

kill them! KILL THEM ALL!!

:P