DESIGN: New Diplomanager

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Just for the record - the actual Civ 3 interface is a bit cleaner, Martin's shot comes from the beta.

But only a little bit cleaner, well at least if I compare it with a conquest screenshot from the directory. They changed the font size and modified the diplomatic advisor window a little bit. But actual the idea is not a one to one copy, I thought rather of a window than of multiple windows. Of course we can also do it like they did , but it is easier to use ctp2 standart list box for the left and right options, because these list box already exists and it would also be coherent with the rest of the interface. Of course we can also replace the entire UI art, but that is another topic. And no source code modification is necessary to do this.

-Martin

[Solver]

Well, the CtP2 listboxes are nice. But to allow for anything-for-anything trades, we would have to modify the source... a simple design (as in layout) change isn't worth it, IMO.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Well, the CtP2 listboxes are nice. But to allow for anything-for-anything trades, we would have to modify the source... a simple design (as in layout) change isn't worth it, IMO.

The source needs to be modified in any case, I can write another list box into the *.ldl files but without a source change it wouldn't appear, and then we need to put something into it, also a source change needed. And finally we need the new diplomacy modell in it.

-Martin

[Solver]

Right. While the system itself can be implemented with relatively few source changes (and ready for us with humans), there would be some heavy AI changes required.

[Martin Gühmann]

The problem is that some heavy source changes are needed anyway to make work even the default system.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
Yes and no. The CTP2 AI does employ a system sort of like you describe above. Here's part of the printout from a debug log with some comments added:

You can see what factors it takes into account: science, gold, production and regard. But this isn't done uniformly: the way it takes them into account depends on the Proposal and many other things. Even though I (player 1) was offering player 4 a good deal, they rejected it (I think) because they didn't like me.

Looking at the list you pasted - i would ask why is palyer 1's(your) science at -6563, whereas player4 is at +6563? maybe this is the reason for the rejection, and if it is what would cause such a large difference between your science levels? the fact that the values are the same(except one negative and one positive), seems a little odd too dont you think? Or is it just like this in computer land?

[Peter Triggs]

The science result is based on the relative costs of the two proposals: I requested Communism (13756) and offered Mass Media (20319). So the sender's net science gain was -6563 and the receiver's was +6563. But the first thing it does after it does this analysis is to check the receiver's regard towards the sender. If it's less than NEUTRAL (500 out of a 1000), it rejects by default.

Martin's right, BTW, we're going to have to supplement both the way that proposals are generated from motivations and the AI's response logic if we want a more robust system. But I think this is going to need some careful thought: I've always thought that there's a serious clash when you allow both a conquest victory and a diplomatic victory. In order to allow for the possibility of the latter, you've got to have an AI that will allow it's players to make friends with the human player. If it does this too easily, the human player can exploit it when he's going after a conquest victory.

I've actually never played for a diplomatic victory. Has anybody? How hard is it? And finally, has anybody tried a diplomatic victory in multiplayer.

[Maquiladora]

Diplomatic victories are the easiest and quickest victory in single player, its just a case of threatening the AI into allying when you have a much better military.

I never got a Diplomacy victory in MP but thats because we exclude Diplomats so in 2v2 games you cant exchange techs and we reach War Walkers in 200 turns.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
The science result is based on the relative costs of the two proposals: I requested Communism (13756) and offered Mass Media (20319). So the sender's net science gain was -6563 and the receiver's was +6563. But the first thing it does after it does this analysis is to check the receiver's regard towards the sender. If it's less than NEUTRAL (500 out of a 1000), it rejects by default.

It is a difficuilt question if you should reject such an offer by default if you don't like them, it would be a good change to improve the relations and the question is if this deal could be advantious in some way.

But I think we need more flexible treaties to compensate the price diffrence like:

OK I give you this advance in return for that advance and I give you something else to compensate the costs.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


It is a difficuilt question if you should reject such an offer by default if you don't like them, it would be a good change to improve the relations and the question is if this deal could be advantious in some way.

But I think we need more flexible treaties to compensate the price diffrence like:

OK I give you this advance in return for that advance and I give you something else to compensate the costs.

-Martin

Yes so in some ways the Civ3 way of doing it is much better at sorting out a compromise exchange than the one we have in CTP2 - we can do quite a bit, its just that it seems more often than not even a very generous offer from yourself is rejected by the AI, well it s seems like it.........i dont want AI 'yes men', but something that actually makes you think, ' Yes in that circumstance it was a good trade/exchange - i would have agreed to it myself' . If we can get close to that then its great

[Martin Gühmann]

I see am interface limit problem, I would like to have parchments on that the selected offers and the requests are put. In that setup the space is limited, if we put the selected stuff into list boxes, we could make deals with a lot of stuff in it, but I feel the list boxes are a little bit deplaced at that place under the leader picture. However we could put the parchment onto the background of these listboxes.

-Martin

[Mihai]

Originally posted by The Big Mc
problem is that your idea is bad I say

I give you advanced infantry(+80 ) + gold500(+10) etc(99) etc()

For all you cities

That could be fixed by an exponential value of cities. AI should take in consideration "no of cities asked/no total of cities" and "population of cities asked/total population".
So, if you are asking for a small city, the AI could accept to give it to you for a good price. If you are asking for 2 cities that hold half of AI's population, it will agree only if you move them from Ancient Age to Diamond Age .

The same can be done with regard - using a parameter.

[Ekmek]

had a few second and thought I'd throw this together..its alittle civ3-ish i know

[Protra3211]

That looks good E hope thats going to be in the next playtest

[Ekmek]

sorry, not coded yet, this is just a cut 'n paste to see if we should invest time in doing HMI touch ups (I'll probably look into the code on it but I've taken on a lot of projects lately)