DESIGN: Another logistics thread

[Ekmek]

I know a few people have voiced opinions on this topic. AND the biggest problem is the AI. But perhaps as an advanced player rule or a way to make things only difficult for a human player (like make Advanced logitics an option that only applies to humans when playing), I propose:

Units outside the nation border cost 1 gold, food, and/or PW. This could also be a ratio of 1 per five squares, or mech units requiring more PW.

There are alot of players that want logistics and this OPTION could add a CTP2 appeal that would bring more into the community.

"Amateurs study tactics, generals(professionals) study logistics"

"Strategy is the logistics of fighting wars"

[Ekmek]

Other ideas on logistics out there included:

A Supply unit that prevents attrition

Using the same trade "lines" to go to units, and therefore can be cut off causing attrition and/or preventing movement

a tile improvement, like airbase, that serves as a depot and units having operational range similar to aircraft.


just ideas thrown out there as the possibilities, as the code come out.

[Locutus]

If your idea is to implement this stuff in the source code, please post such ideas in the Open Source forum (I can move this thread for you if you want or you can repost it yourself and I'll close this one).

If the idea is to implement this in SLIC, you can ignore this post


As for implementing it in source code, I think it's a bit too early to go into that right now. As for SLIC, I don't like it as the AI can't cope

[tlatoani]

Re: Another logistics thread

Originally posted by E

Units outside the nation border cost 1 gold, food, and/or PW. This could also be a ratio of 1 per five squares, or mech units requiring more PW.

I second the motion. I propose an increasing linear damage to the unit if it's outside it's borders. While ancient armies did bring along some supplies, a very significant portion of their supplies was obtained by pillaging. In this sense, if an army pillages a farm improvement they restore a portion of the damage to it caused by being outside their borders.

I think Locutus is right, this thread should be in the open source forum, since if it's done by SLIC the AI wouldn't defend against this kind of damage.

[Ekmek]

I agre about the AI part. This should be more of a way to change the human player(s) and not the AI. Making war a more planned process or if these effects are increased under certain governments/religions a penalty


Locutus could you move this or should I just post a link?

[Ekmek]

Saw this one and thought it might be interesting (and possibly easier to code)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=135236

Originally posted by Dominus84
Howdy folks. Haven't posted on Apolyton in years, but I was just reading one of the books in the Belisarius series (by Eric Flint), and a fantastic idea just popped into my head for Civilization (logistics play a large part in the story). I know its too late to make it into Civ IV, but I gotta tell somebody. Hopefully I'm not going to be "that guy" that comes up with the idea after four dozen others already have. But after skimming the List, I didn't see it.

So, here's the great (and relatively simple idea):
All units will require a set ammount of resources a turn. We'll use food, as thats the easiest. Just say that every military unit requires 1 food/turn. You can supply them as long as they're within 1 tile of your road/river network (and, of course, if you have surplus food). If they're not near your network (or if they're cut off from it, by enemy troops blocking the way) they must feed off the land. In friendly territory, they can get as much food from a tile as that tile normally produces. In neutral (unclaimed) territory, there will be a small penalty (no local farmers to help them out). In hostile territory, there will be a larger penalty (locals will be actively making their life hard). Every turn they go without food, they suffer some damage.

This would allow for alot of realism:
- No stone age Roman scouts pulling a Marco Polo and reaching China. You're limited to scouting the area around your Civ. Just like in real life. The Roman Empire knew Europe, North African, and the Mideast well. Subsaharan Africa was kinda foggy, as was India. China, while known, was complete darkness to them.

- Deserts, Mountains, and Tundra become actual barriers to movement, as they produce no food. Just like in real life. The Old Kingdom of Egypt never had to bother much with a military, as they were surrounded by desert, which kept everyone out. If you try to pull a Hannibal, you can do it, but its going to hurt (just as it cost Hannibal). In CivI-III, you could march a massive army over the Himalayas and take any casualties until you actually went to battle.


Roman Legions, assuming they can build roads (come on, we've all edited them to be able to do that at least once), all of a sudden pack a whallop, as they can keep themselves in supply much easier (build a road network and defend it). Just like in real life. The Legions were well trained, yes, but it was their logistics that made them so effective.

Forts could also be used as mini-granaries, holding a few units of food (and whatever other supplies your troops will need as your tech progresses) for the units stationed there. Makes them more valuable (I never found them too useful). Starve off the units stationed there (could take awhile, unless theres alot there), and they have to leave or die. You then can take the fort. Whee.

Problems with this:
- Ships. How would supply for them be modeled? All sea squares currently produce food, so they could go anywhere based on supply. Of course, your trade abilities in CivIII expanded out from shore gradually as tech progressed, so you could use that for ships. So, a Civ that hasn't discovered Navigation or Magnetism (those were the 2 techs, right?) would have to keep its ships close to shore to keep them in supply.

- For those units that are supplied by your Civ and not their own forraging, which cities should the food come from? The closest city? The one producing the most food?

- The ammount of food that tiles produce would have to be increased, to allow for the massive increase in demand.


Alright, thats my pipe dream. What'dya guys think of it?

in CtP2 I think it be coded by adding a unit flag. And at the start of the turn when it checks a unit it checks the tile the unit is on and gets who owns it and what terrain it is. We cant do food but we could calculate a penalty or bonus based on shield cost and make it based on tiles or terraintype(land, mountain)

just another possibility.

[demon59]

I like the idea of "Supply", but wouldn't a set cost for each unit become prohibitively expensive too quickly? If one had to field three or more defensive armies against large stacks from several attacking AIs, it would seem to be too likely for the player to be overwhelmed by supply costs. Perhaps a method based on Army size could be developed (1-3 cost 1, 4-6 cost 2, etc.). This would require the logistical thinking you're looking for, but be less overwhelming in situations of multiple AI belligerents.

[Ekmek]

true,

If anything I really think it should be a challenge for the human, the AI shouldnt be limited by logistics (it will making programing the AI harder and the AI stll needs some work)

I think logistics would find a way to limit the gold rush you tend to get in ctp2 but also limit movement of pre-modern units. ancient units should not be able to travel throughout asia wthout a high cost.

but the army size is cool, I'll have to look in it as well.

[demon59]

It might be more realistic (and possibly simpler to program) to have only Armies affected by Supply. Individual units could be considered small enough to be able to "live off the land" even in less hospitable climates. In the desert Southwest of the U.S., the native tribes would often travel to and from raids/battles in small groups, by different routes, only combining into a single force at the battle site, since the area's resources (especially water) were too limited to support the "army" as a combined entity for the entire trip. This also limited immediate retalliation, by depletion of those necessary resources during their passing, thereby making it impossible for their enemies to give extended chase after a battle.

[Ekmek]

true, but I think the player would "cheat" by only grouping units before they ttack even though they are the same square. but i guess anything is possible with programming.

[demon59]

Good point. Of course, players who are prone to cheating are going to find a way to do so, regardless. Hmm, if you place units in the same square, but don't group them, do they still defend from attack as a group? Or does the attacker only end up fighting one of the units/groups in the square with each attack? If the latter is the case, then the added risk of being attacked in a weakened position might offset the "Supply" advantage of not grouping until the last minute.