PROJECT: Source Code: Project Team

[LDiCesare]

Keyg, I do also doubt a fully-fledgled expansion somewhat. We don't have enough competent programmers here. The ones we have do actually hav (of course) limited time resources. If we here had a bunch of programmers (5-7) working full-time, 9 hours a day, on expansion, as well as a pair of artists for new graphics, yes, we'd be able to get a very solid expansion in under a year. Seeing, though, how all the job that's going to be done will be done on a volunteer basis by people who have college/university/work/families to deal with...

I'm not sure. If you can get 2 part time programmers for 2 years, you can probably do a lot of good stuff. Considering that this is just an extension, I'm sure you could do many things.
Look at the credits for games: Currently they often have about 5 ful time programmers for 1 year, and many more graphists. For an extension pack, that's about 4 or 5 for 6 months. Even part time, you can get an extension within a 2 year time frame, with deliverable milestones in the meantime (things like crash fixes, PBEM, hotseat, and other almost working thingies).

[Zanzin]

Hey everyone.

Haven't posted on Apolyton for ages, as I basically lost interest in civ after civ3 was...well, not up to meeting my expectations.

Was a stong supporter of both CTP1 and 2, but, given their bugs etc their playability was limited.

Anyway, I don't really have any programming skills (not in C++ anyway) or anything to add to the project....other than that I would like to register my vote of support for this project, and would like to say good luck to everyone involved...if you can achieve an update/fix, and later an expansion of ctp2....well, it'd be great, and you'd make a lot of people happy.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Solver

a good, persistent and inspired lead

You ?

Geez Solv, read the comment in the parenthesis
I was more thinking of some people in leading roles like project lead, design lead, programming lead etc. Some examples could be (yes) me, you, Locutus, John and others.

Lead does not imply one person necessarilly. That would be a leader

Originally posted by Solver

Besides take a look at all those mod and utilities created for CtP 1&2. Do you think that all together took less work than an expansion?

Let's face it, C++ is a bigger pain in the butt than SLIC. Besides, all the mods were also created over long time periods.

It sure is but who knew SLIC when CtP was introduced? I am sure that there are lot of programmers out there that have been writting code in C++ for years.

I am not sure if you have ever bothered to take a deeper look in some expansions out there.

In civ like games specifically all I can see is new units, leaders, civilizations, tiles, goodies and a few limited range additions and possibly some bug fixes. Most of them reuse the same code with a couple of really easy changes and new art which however is based in the same pattern.

Look at the Play the World expansion. If you take multiplayer apart what major chances have been really made?

Except some fixes needed and a PBEM feature, multiplayer in CtP series is ready.

What would really be pain in the ass would be major additions like some civ3 consepts like resources, culture, civ specific features or similar or make CtP1 work with CtP2 in multiplayer if that would be possible or worth the pain at all.

And who said we will do it or if we do will have it in a year?
Of cource it would take lot of time

Originally posted by Solver

Currently, though... I will settle for a working CtP2 with bugs fixed and PBEM done. Maybe space-layer reintroduced. Well, Keyg, see the other threads .

As I said, the best point to start with would be a patch
Good luck though.
It won't be hard to fix all these dozens of minor and major bugs I read all over a 1.8 million lines of code written in C++

And yes, I do read the other threads too

[Keygen]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

I'm not sure. If you can get 2 part time programmers for 2 years, you can probably do a lot of good stuff. Considering that this is just an extension, I'm sure you could do many things.
Look at the credits for games: Currently they often have about 5 ful time programmers for 1 year, and many more graphists. For an extension pack, that's about 4 or 5 for 6 months. Even part time, you can get an extension within a 2 year time frame, with deliverable milestones in the meantime (things like crash fixes, PBEM, hotseat, and other almost working thingies).

The case you mention have a couple of important differences compared with our case:

a) These programmers concerning the expansion are most likely (not howsoever) already familiar with the code in which they're going to work.

b) They have deticated programmers because they're paid.

And these would be the biggest problems we would have to face in my opinion.

Get familiar with the code (working with a patch first would greatly help, that's the reason I insist in it) and keep a core of people in all fields (programming, design, art...) deticated for as much time it takes to finish it. That wouldn't be than 5 guys in my opinion but in voluntary and open projects like this one even that number is quite ambitious.

If overcome these problems then I beleive we could have an expansion out in 2 years, maybe less.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Zanzin

....other than that I would like to register my vote of support for this project, and would like to say good luck to everyone involved...if you can achieve an update/fix, and later an expansion of ctp2....well, it'd be great, and you'd make a lot of people happy.

[LDiCesare]

The case you mention have a couple of important differences compared with our case:

a) These programmers concerning the expansion are most likely (not howsoever) already familiar with the code in which they're going to work.

b) They have deticated programmers because they're paid.

I'm not sure. Being familiar helps, but when you start with patches, you get into the code. Plus 2 million lines is NOT that much. I guess it depends on the coder and how much used they are with big projects.
You can find unpaid programmes who are dedicated. They'll spend ten times less time programming than if they were paid (but think more in the meantime, thus being more effficient), but you do find dedicated programmers from time to time on non commercial game projects. I know a few, but it is hard to keep them for long, since real life can cause lots of damage.

[Solver]

Good points all... gonna be mostly offline for the next few days, up to a week... but Keyg, hey, I was joking for the most part .

[Keygen]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

I'm not sure. Being familiar helps, but when you start with patches, you get into the code.

My point exactly

Originally posted by LDiCesare

Plus 2 million lines is NOT that much. I guess it depends on the coder and how much used they are with big projects.

You think so?

With an average of 50 lines per page in a A4 size book it would need 40.000 pages. That would mean around 100 volumes of 800 pages each

Well, OK it's not the same exactly
Most lines wouldn't fill an entire A4 row.
If you add the load of commentaries and probably code left there from unimplemented features that could be 5 to 10 times less, something like saying 20-10 volumes of 800 pages A4 size books.

This is not exactly "NOT much" as you can see but you've got a point.
I don't think it will be necessarily to read and learn all that code, only the parts that would be needed to build a patch and when lined down in the length of time under high interest and pasion it might be proven that you were right after all

All these are of cource theory and my personal and quite rushed and rough estimation that could be considerably out of reality

Mr Ogre?

Originally posted by LDiCesare

You can find unpaid programmes who are dedicated. They'll spend ten times less time programming than if they were paid (but think more in the meantime, thus being more effficient), but you do find dedicated programmers from time to time on non commercial game projects. I know a few, but it is hard to keep them for long, since real life can cause lots of damage.

Yes, that's the problem.
Dedicated would mean not only working on an often basis but also make it to the end.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Solver

but Keyg, hey, I was joking for the most part .

You were?
I think not
At list I hope not

You certainly have a point there but so have I
At list I think so

Keep your good work

[LDiCesare]

Dedicated would mean not only working on an often basis but also make it to the end.

Yes, but you won't be able to know who will make it to the end, because everyone thinks they will. So the project manager has to first give small tasks to people so they can get it done, and the commitment/availabel workload can be assessed. Of course, real life can wreck even the best and most dedicated programmer you can get (we had that in Clash - Gary Thomas did a huge work, and then was struck by a fit of RL). But if you can give tasks to people that avoid dependencies or only have dependencies on people who showed thet can react within one week, you don't need them to stay there forever to make good progress.
I think in Clash we manage to get some coding done, and there is probably much more people ready to work on CtP2 than on Clash, plus most of the code is already there, or is there, but bugged.

You'll also need someone to keep coders in line (that is, make sure someone knows what coder lambda is doing so two people don't collide unexpectedly, etc.).

[Keygen]

I won't disagree as you sound reasonable, only add that key persons should be dedicated otherwise the whole project could end up dead.

Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too ) but when I refer and insist on dedicated people I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story.

[Solver]

Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too )

What does too mean? This is THE real life... the other life exists merely to get food and money so that you can live this life .

I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story.

A highly good point. That's why I don't myself expect to do much for the project. I will surely take a look at the code, but I do at the moment have enough things to deal with - and dedicating several more hours a week to modding CtP2 doesn't seem to be possible.

Just Keyg, may I remind you of CtP Info Central ? I think it's only in creation for 2 years .

[Dale]

Keygen:

Well, you can count me in as a proggy anyways. I just need to point out that with my own project starting the near beta stage my time will be limited. Maybe only 2 hours a week, but that's 2 more than you have now.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Solver

Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too )

What does too mean? This is THE real life... the other life exists merely to get food and money so that you can live this life .

Originally posted by Solver

I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story.

A highly good point. That's why I don't myself expect to do much for the project. I will surely take a look at the code, but I do at the moment have enough things to deal with - and dedicating several more hours a week to modding CtP2 doesn't seem to be possible.

Just Keyg, may I remind you of CtP Info Central ? I think it's only in creation for 2 years .

Well, if you cumulate the hours you spend here joking around you would have some for it

CtP Info Center?
How about the CtP PBEM Rules 2.0? CtP MP Bugs thread? CtP MP Player List? My attempt to enrich the rules for the Ranking? And some more....
All part of the CtP Info Center.

Did any bothered to take a look there and show his interest? Few...

Why the hell spend more time then

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Dale

Keygen:

Well, you can count me in as a proggy anyways. I just need to point out that with my own project starting the near beta stage my time will be limited. Maybe only 2 hours a week, but that's 2 more than you have now.

Indeed, better than nothing