DESIGN: CtP2 Source Code released - our actions [brainstorm & discussion]

[ahenobarb]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Make a feature where the player can write strings on tiles (by clicking the right button for instance).

This way we can add a naming regions feature

"dark forest", "Grand Canyon", "Amazonia River", "Everest Mountain", "Iguacu Fall", etc...

Or do it like you do in SimCity. Plant a flagpole on the spot you want to name and type the text. The flag dispalys the text you want.

I just got back, but ditto what I said last week: I think there should be a SLIC thread, if there isn't already. Maybe, I'll just start one?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Locutus
I'm pretty sure they use DirectX (5 or 6 IIRC).

CTP1 comes with DirectX 6 and CTP2 comes according to its manuel with DirectX 7.0a. So maybe DirectX 7.0a is required, but also possible only an older version is needed and they added to the CD the latest version. So it could still something between 5 and 7.

[MrBaggins]

Windowed mode means that you need to deal with non-exclusive resources (generally speaking DirectSound)

A Fullscreen only mode eliminates these conflicts.

I don't know it'll be simple adding a windowed mode, considering the theoretical issues involved.

Graphically, they use Directdraw, which was set in stone by DirectX3 and has been just repackaged ever since (IIRC from my reading.)

Also, if they are using multistage transparancy, then there is some kind of alpha emulation going on, since DD only supports binary transparency. We don't know how they considered windowed mode with this, and if they used any assumptions which might break.

It seems to me that significant rewriting of the graphics engine including some theoretical windowed mode may be a huge undertaking... and we might not figure out how much work it'd take for a long time.

[Solver]

So I think we can bottom line it at this - we're not making a windowed mode. It would require rewriting too much of game ngine, and it would take a big amount of work, much ebtter to spend it all on actual fixes.

[WesW]

Hi guys, just thought I would add my 2 cents while passing through...

I don't know if any of you have ever seen the source code for a game, but from what I gather it is enormous. Don hacked into the code for either Ctp1 or 2 one time, and tried to print it out- I think he said it came out to over 100K lines of code. It may have been several times that; I have trouble remembering.
Anyway, it's going to take a concerted effort just to *find* things, much less start working on fixing them. Some of the bugs you guys mention are probably just typos that can be fixed rather quickly, but some are going to be things that can't be fixed at all for some reason or another.
You need to set up a system of reporting where things are in the code, so that you can look at it yourselves. Then some of the experienced guys need to post guides, and this can start now, for what types of functions and formulas are used for this language; how to recognize them and how to safely modify them.

I just spent all weekend debugging my latest MTW beta, and it gave me a big reminder that messing with things you are unfamiliar with can give you huge headaches down the line. (In my case the unfamiliarity was with Excel, but a huge code block can also be bad.)

As for what to do first- well, it's probably going to take weeks just to get a handle on the code and get the community organized. Most people tend to concentrate on what they are most interested in, anyway, so setting up lists are only going to do so much.
I would echo the guys like Chris B. who said to go back to the things that irritated us when we first started playing the game, since those will be the biggest detractors from the basic joy of playing.
Myself, I still remember the lines of code for all these neat triggers that were never implemented, like a 50% penalty for attacking city walls, which would tone down mounted units.
In know that some people are going to try and improve SLIC so that they can implement their pet trigger, but the community as a whole would be better served by studying the AI formulas for the things that don't work well, like getting a better balance of guns and butter, or asking for cease-fires when it's getting conquered. We have all had times when we sent emissaries to the AI when it was down to one undefended city and, for fun, asked it for a cease fire, and the AI always tells us to kiss its a$$.

Anyway, I wish you guys luck, and I'll try and stop by some to see what the code looks like, and give Locutus a few programming pointers.

[Peter Triggs]

Hi, Wes

Don wasn't the only one to hack into CTP1:

Can you describe the technical innards of the game?
The game is approximately half a million lines of C++ code. It is split into several sections: UI, networking, sound, and AI. Templates and classes are heavily used in the AI, user interface, and networking. There is no documentation other than source comments (and Sam and Matt themselves).

The game makes use of the following libraries:

Simple DirectMedia Layer
SMPEG
Zlib
Pthreads
A subset of the Miles sound API

The game also uses Anet (Activision's networking library). The networking drivers and map generators are dynamically loaded using the C dlopen() interface.

But that was CTP1. I should think we can expect at least that much from CTP2.

[Maquiladora]

What about the status bar at the bottom telling you what units occupy a tile when you hover over it? I think its too helpful and id prefer not to have it. Not the resource/tile info part just the units info.

[Solver]

Wes has a point. I haven't work with game sources before...

[JamesJKirk]

Re: Locutus, et al's trade suggestions

Originally posted by Locutus
As for Trade, I would personally (eventually -- this is long-term thinking) like to completely revise the trade system....

I'd like a trade system somewhat similar to Civ3, but more advanced: like Civ3, you need certain goods in your recourse box before you can build certain units. To get these resources, you must have them in your radius, or you must be connected to a network. But contrary to Civ3, IMO this shouldn't be a road network but rather a trade network. If you have a city with iron and a city with gold, you can only take advantage of the iron in city 2 by creating an iron trade route with city 1. The same with the gold: city 1 needs a gold route with city 2 to be able to take advantage of the gold. Both building and mainaining trade goods should come at a cost, which similarly to PW should be subtracted directly from the national income (not sure yet which resource(s) should be used for this). So no more building of Caravans.

Aside from that, I agree with MrBaggins that foreign trade should be much more valuable than national trade and that trade should contribute to science as well.

Of course, this system of mine would be a huge change with major implications on other parts of the game (the AI, for one thing). It would be a huge undertaking to implement and I'm sure not everyone will like it, so it shouldn't be part of a "official baseline version", to use Solver's terminology.

Howdy all, I've played both CTPs on and off and with some of the various mods, I thought I'd jump in because this is a big deal. IMO, and I think I've seen this said elsewhere, the trade/gold system would qualify as a bug, since it's far too easy to get obscenely rich without trying at all, which shouldn't be possible. A new (and novel) focus on the trade system (and the diffusion of technology ) would help this and distinguish CTP2 further from the rest in the series. While I have played CTP1/2 many times, I currently play Civ3 and it would take something novel to bring me (and probably many others back). So while I agree it's more important to get rid of all the real bugs first, certain things (like Solver's UN idea) that would set this apart from other Civ games need to be implemented at least in the longer run in order to (re)attract people to CTP2.

[Maquiladora]

Get rid of the bonus when a city is build on a Tile Improvement.

Or probably easier, get rid of the tile imp when a city is built there.

[Immortal Wombat]

Can be SLICed.

[Maquiladora]

Well thats just dandy

[Maquiladora]

What about Direct IP MP games?

Have we brainstormed enough yet?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Can be SLICed.

Of course can be sliced but it makes modding easier if you just need to add to the tileimp.txt a flag like: CityRemoves or something like this. Well this would also imply that a tile improvement without this flag could be build on a city tile. Well we know that roads and all the other movement reducing TIs are placed automaticly on the city tile. In Civ2 it was automaticly irrigated or farmed IIRC. So maybe a fre tileimp for cities.

-Martin

[Keygen]

Lol Solv, and you claim that an expantion would be out of the question...

If you ever planning on implementing all or most of the features proposed here you will possibly have CtP3, not a simple expansion...

Good luck