Good Possibilities

[HuangShang]

I'd say that you can have cities of different nation where their areas of influence border be able to cause something for the exchange of info

and govs that are less strict can allow this to happen more freely

also, when enabling tech by goods, you can have goods traded in count as yours. infact it'll make sense to change price/value of a good based on suppply and demand.
the more countries have the good, the less expensive.
the more countries need the good, the more expensive
it makes sense because the whole idea of the mod based on goods

[HuangShang]

eh...(off topic) what with the light by the name?

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by HuangShang
eh...(off topic) what with the light by the name?

It shows you who is 'on-line' at the time, as an example im now 'off-line'

[child of Thor]

RE Martins good list:

Is this the kind of thing you're aiming for?
It's very rough(and the fact i just couldn't cut and paste it from word without scrambling it didn't help!), but already it seems if you are just relying on the Goods themselves there are all sorts of difficulties to balance it up(for example which ore should lead to 'Metulgary' advance, copper,bronze,Iron or maybe all three?).Is this how you are thinking of doing it? Some goods will remain just that(what do you do with emeralds for example(and it was in your list three times )?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor
(for example which ore should lead to 'Metulgary' advance, copper,bronze,Iron or maybe all three?)

I didn't know that bronze is part of GoodMod1. Actual I even didn't know that this one is a ressource that can be found on the earth. Actual it is an alloy of copper and tin. The Great Library confirms it and the GL leads me to the idea that it is only neccessary to make copper as a prequisite for bronze working.

But to answer your question, if you mean that you need all of the for suggested goods then the answer is no, but if you mean just one of them no matter what of them to get metallurgy then the answer is yes.

Originally posted by child of Thor
what do you do with emeralds for example and it was in your list three times

Actual that are three different goods with the same name, rwo with the same sprite and another one with a different sprite. The main differences between them are in their on the map occurance probabilities. (And they have different database indices, that is improtant for slic if you use the DB index number in your code) Unfortunatly I can't hide them in the Great Library, as the GLHidden flag of the Goods.txt is broken. So for the gameplay all these copies should do the same. One thing you have to consider if you like to replace goods in the list that your good has to fit into the terrain. Unfortunatly CTP1 and CTP2 only allow 4 goods per terrain (Yeah I know the CTP1 editor suggest that only two goods are alowed per terrain, but the civctp.exe looks a little bit different) Horses on mountains is not the best idea, actual they are animals of the plains, maybe they could fit into the grassland invironment to replace to potatoes there.

So far for the other goods your list is a start. So what we now could add for grapes, tobacco and poppies would be the advance drugs, also these goods could lead to medicine, but could also make your people "happier" as they make them to forget their problems, or it could help you to develope "stronger" unit.

Originally posted by HuangShang
and govs that are less strict can allow this to happen more freely

That is in interesting idea and it could reduce the benefits of such governments like Democracy.

OK let's go to another topic I found in the advance.txt section of the ctp2.exe these strings:

Dependencies
LeadsTo

Dependencies is not clear if it is this what it says then it would be actual the same like Preriquisites.

LeadsTo is more interesting if it just allows to reasearch another advance for that you don't have the enabling advances. If this work like this then it could save some slic work, but I am afraid only trial and error can help here really.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

just a quick reply Martin(i'm about to finish work ),
the quote about certain govs being less strict was by HuangShang, not me - so i don't want to take credit for it
the other stuff i see what you are saying and yes i took a bit of liberty to replace two of the emerald entries with 'Horses' and 'Bronze'(i wasn't sure about it either as it is just an alloy - guess it's a bit of Civ1 creeping in!), thinking in my ignorence it was a typo. Still i like this whole thing very much indeed - what kind of list have you come up with for Good dependent advances/units?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor
the quote about certain govs being less strict was by HuangShang, not me - so i don't want to take credit for it

Yeah this manual quoting, and I tought of it to change it...But anyway quote fixed.

Originally posted by child of Thor
(i wasn't sure about it either as it is just an alloy - guess it's a bit of Civ1 creeping in!)

Bronze was really a trade good in Civ1. OK it could be justified as trade good but not as a ressourse. Actual this is a problem with most of the goods graphics that you see them as a ware and not as a raw ressource. But of course raw ressources would create a total different atmosphere.

Originally posted by child of Thor
what kind of list have you come up with for Good dependent advances/units?

So far I hadn't much time to think about more then the basic concepts and the ideas already presented in this thread. To get started was one idea of this thread, another idea was to leave it open first, and find out what could be done later. Therefore your suggestions are more then welcome. Next Monday I will write the last exam of five this month and this semester, then the lecture time ends and I have some time until October (I hope). Until then you can suggest more. For example I find it a good idea to burn dryed peat, so I have something that can be done with it, also the idea for diamonds I didn't considered myself.

Another example is using horses, camels, elephants or buffolos for trade, I didn't considered this myself, but it is possible, fortunatly you don't need sprites for these trade units. Avtual this is a better example for using of alternative techs as the stone wood example. This help also to balance it, so the change is bigger to get one of these improved trade units then just the improve trade unit would be dependent on camels. Actual these units are equal in reality, but for the CTP2 setup they should be equal, on plains and grassland horses will be the best trade units, in the desert camels. Elephants would be good for heavy loads. Maybe this would be a reason to give Elephants one more trade point then the other ones, but on the other hand horses are fast. So the amount of trade points they give should be equal.

But these four goods could give different advances or units for example elephants should give the war elephant as unit. You would give horse riding from horses of course.

-Martin

[Locutus]

This is something I came up with tonight, similar to what CoT posted only more elaborate, with more goods and more advances. To ensure balance, some resources are available on several terrain types and some branches of the advance tree can be opened up by (one of) several resources. Of course this is something I quickly threw together, it can't possibly be balanced properly, but it's a start...

I think the list of resources itself is pretty exhaustive: pretty much everything from all the games/mods/whatever I used as source is in some form or another included here (though suggestions are welcome of course). The only problem is that there are already more resources than fit on the map, so some selection is needed. The technology that's dependent on these resources is still pretty sketchy, but it gives a general idea of what's possible...

I don't know how to implement Clothing, Fur and Hides in the tech tree yet but I think that with a system like this, they should be implement some way or another, so I left those techs between brackets.

As far as the wood/stone(/clay) debate goes, my opinion is that small amounts of stone/wood/clay/etc are always available, everywhere in the world. For building houses or weapons, it doesn't matter whether you live in desert, forest, grassland or tundra, there are (almost) always materials available for such things. For things like building the Pyramids, Stonehenge or Angkor Wat or whatever though, you need *huge* quantities of high-quality building material, you can't find these everywhere. Therefore I think Marble, Clay, Hardwood, etc *should* be resources but they shouldn't be necessary for basic units and buildings, just for wonders and maybe specific units/buildings (FE City Walls, but then the Stockade should also return for those who don't have these resources and still want city defenses).

First follows a list of all resources by terrain type. 4 per terrain, for some terrains several alternatives are available. Note that it might in some cases be desirable for balance and/or realism to move some stuff around, the resources don't necessarilly have to stay with the terrains at which they are listed now. As it is it's a somewhat arbitrary list. After that follows a list of all resources and the advances they enable (these advance might represent entire branches, where subsequent advances depend on the one listed here, that is TBD). The 3rd column gives examples of what units/buildings might depend on them. The last column has an 'x' for every advance that isn't in the terrain list as a first choice, this made it easier for me to balance out the list and ensure the most important resources were in. Advances after #63 are not in the terrain list at all, since currently there's no room for them anyway. Goods with an (L) behind their name are Luxuries and can add happiness or whatever...

Note that I used the GoodMod list as basis but removed all doubles (I hope).

*Terrain Type*
 x. First choice
	(x. Alternative)

*Polar Mountain*
 1. Rubies
	(2. Diamonds)
 3. Bauxite
 4. Emeralds
60. Marble

*Desert*
	(5. Glass)
 6. Oil
 7. Dates
 8. Camels
55. Saltpeter
 
*Forest*
 9. Hardwood
10. Bears
	(11. Apples)
12. Beavers
51. Silk
	(59. Amber)

*Grassland*
13. Cotton
	(14. Tobacco)
	(15. Potatoes)
	(16. Poppies)
33. Rice
54. Cattle
	(61. Wool)
62. Hemp

*Hill*
	(17. Coffee)
18. Grapes
19. Uranium
	(20. Olives)
26. Coal
60. Marble

*Jungle*
	(21. Medicinal Herbs)
22. Jade 
	(23. Bananas)
	(24. Sugar)
	(25. Tea)
29. Elephant
56. Rubber
	(14. Tobacco)
28. Spices

*Mountain*
25. Tea
	(4. Emerald)
26. Coal
27. Gold
57. Tungsten
	(60. Marble)

*Plains*
	(28. Spices)
29. Elephant
30. Wheat
	(31. Buffalo)
53. Horses
61. Wool
	(62. Hemp)

*Swamp*
32. Alligator
	(33. Rice)
34. Chilli
35. Peat
63. Clay

*Tundra*
36. Caribou
 6. Oil
 3. Bauxite
57. Tungsten

*Deep Water*
37. Whales
	(38. Giant Squid)
39. Tuna
46. Fish
64. Lithium

*Shallow Water*
	(40. Crabs)
41. Pearls
42. Salmon
43. Lobster
46. Fish

*Sand Dunes*
44. Copper
45. Silver
 5. Glass
	(8. Camels)
55. Saltpeter

*Beach*
40. Crabs
46. Fish
52. Salt
	(6. Oil)
58. Dye

*Desert Mountain*
47. Iron Ore
45. Silver
	(2. Diamonds)
52. Salt
55. Saltpeter

*Polar Hill*
48. Saphires
 6. Oil
 3. Bauxite
57. Tungsten

*Glacier*
49. Seals
50. Walrus
 6. Oil
 2. Diamonds

*Submarine Volcano*
 1. Rubies
 2. Diamonds
	(48. Saphires)
 4. Emeralds
40. Crabs

*Continatal Shelf*
	(40. Crab)
41. Pearls
42. Salmon
43. Lobster
 6. Oil

*Submarine Canyons*
37. Whales
38. Giant Squid
39. Tuna
57. Tungsten

*Submarine Ridge*
37. Whales
38. Giant Squid
64. Lithium
 6. Oil

*Kelp Bed*
40. Crabs
41. Pearls
42. Salmon
43. Lobster

*Coral Reef*
40. Crabs
41. Pearls
42. Salmon
43. Lobster

=== Effects ===
x. Resource		-> Advance			-> Application		not used

 1. Rubies (L)		-> Laser			-> War Walker
 2. Diamonds (L)	-> Laser			-> War Walker
 3. Bauxite/Aluminum	-> Modern Metallurgy		-> Tank/Interceptor
 4. Emeralds (L)	-> Laser			-> War Walker
 5. Glass (L)		-> Optics			-> Cathedral
 6. Oil			-> Oil Refining			-> Tank
 7. Dates/Palm Tree (L)	-> Oil Refining			-> Tank	
 8. Camels		-> Camel Riding			-> Camel Rider	
 9. Hardwood		-> Construction			-> Torii/Angkor/Madurai/etc
10. Bears		-> (Fur)
11. Apples (L)										x
12. Beavers (L)		-> (Fur)
13. Cotton		-> (Clothing)
14. Tobacco (L)										x
15. Potatoes (L)									x
16. Poppies/Opium (L)									x
17. Coffee (L)										x
18. Grapes (L)
19. Uranium		-> Nuclear Fission		-> Nuclear Plant/Nuke
20. Olives		-> Oil Refining			-> Tank				x
21. Medicinal Herbs	-> Medicine			-> Apothecary/Hospital		x
22. Jade (L)
23. Bananas (L)										x
24. Sugar (L)										x
25. Tea (L)
26. Coal		-> Coal Mining/Steam Engine	-> Forge
27. Gold		-> Currency			-> Marketplace
28. Spices (L)
29. Elephant (L)	-> Elephant Riding		-> War Elephant
30. Wheat		-> Agriculture			-> Farm
31. Buffalo (L)		-> Animal Husbandry/(Hides)	-> Pasture/Trade		x
32. Alligator (L)	-> (Clothing)
33. Rice		-> Agriculture			-> Farm
34. Chilli (L)
35. Peat		-> Peat Mining			-> Forge
36. Caribou/Game (L)	-> (Fur)
37. Whales (L)		-> (Hides)
38. Giant Squid (L)
39. Tuna (L)
40. Crabs		-> Fishery			-> Nets
41. Pearls (L)		-> Currency			-> Marketplace
42. Salmon (L)		-> Fishery			-> Nets
43. Lobster (L)		-> Fishery			-> Nets
44. Copper		-> Metallurgy			-> Phalanx
45. Silver (L)		-> Currency			-> Market
46. Fish		-> Fishery			-> Nets
47. Iron Ore		-> Iron Working			-> Legion
48. Saphires (L)	-> Laser			-> War Walker
49. Seals (L)		-> (Hides)
50. Walrus (L)		-> (Hides)
51. Silk (L)		-> Silk Armor 			-> Horse Archer
52. Salt		-> Food Preservation/Currency	-> Granary/Market
53. Horses		-> Animal Husb/Horseback Riding	-> Horseman/Pasture/Trade
54. Cattle		-> Animal Husbandry		-> Pasture/Trade
55. Saltpeter		-> Gunpowder			-> Arquebusier/Musketeer
56. Rubber		-> Industrialization		-> Tank/Modern Infantry
57. Tungsten/Wolfram	-> Mechanization		-> Manufacturing Plant
58. Dye (L)
59. Amber (L)										x
60. Marble (L)		-> Construction			-> Temple of Zeus/Colesseum/etc
61. Wool/Sheep		-> Animal Husbandry/(Fur)	-> Pasture/Trade
62. Hemp		-> Paper/(Clothing)		-> Banking
63. Clay		-> Construction			-> Colesseum/Angkor/Madurai/etc
64. Lithium		-> Fusion/Plasma Weaponry	-> Fusion Tank/Plasma Destoyer	x
---
65. Lead										x
66. Tin											x
67. Nickel										x
68. Zinc										x
69. Linen/Flax		-> Paper/(Clothing)		-> Banking			x
70. Corn		-> Agriculture			-> Farm				x
71. Porcelain										x
72. Papyrus										x
73. Lemon										x
74. Lama		-> Animal Husbandry		-> Pasture/Trade		x
75. Beer										x
==========
Total:  75
In use: 53

[J Bytheway]

Iridium -

http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/77.html

Apparently helicopter spark plugs

[Locutus]

Note to all: I made some changes to my previous post, if you already read it and found it somewhat incomprehensive, you may want to read it again

Iridium: I quite frankly have no idea what it is or what it's good for, but it seemed to me that we needed some sort of resource that will become important in the future. I took the periodic table and randomly chose a metal, it happened to be Iridium

[J Bytheway]

Lucky that you happened to pick one which actually occurs in metal form, not as an oxide...

You might consider the stuff they use to produce tritium in fusion reactors - I believe lithium... that would be important since plasma destroyers, etc. might by fusion powered (fusion tanks?).

[Locutus]

Well, my choice was not *entirely* random....

Ow, lithium is very nice indeed... good for future stuff AND it's apparently found in/near water, the one place on the map that still has room for more resources...

I'll edit it in in a moment...

[child of Thor]

I guess Hemp - (Paper) and Papyrus would lead to advance Literacy and buildings libary etc.
Actually clay,wood and hides were some of the earliest things used for writing - could that work here?
As for the animal/trade thing it sort of speaks for itself - all animals that can be domesticated would have used to take goods from one place to another, if you only had elephants around(India) then that's what you used.What about some Lama's for south american civs
(maybe in place of donkey?as horse could cover that?)

[Locutus]

Re: Literacy: I guess so, but I'm not sure if you want this. As you said, you don't need Paper in order to be able to write, you you can use dozens of different materials for that. Paper revolutionized written language though, just as much as the printing press did (although paper never became famous for it): it's waaayyy cheaper, easier to produce, better preserved, easier to use, etc. It lead to a golden age of literacy in China and found dozens of different applications aside from writing material, from toilet paper to money. Paper is by no means a necessary advance for a civilization to have but it does give a huge boost. Writing OTOH is vital: without writing no complex government forms, philosophy or scientific research is possible. You really can't make a tech tree without writing, so making it a terrain-dependent tech could shut down huge and vital sections of the tree. Not a good idea IMHO...

As for Lama vs Donkey, I agree that would be a good idea, I'll adjust my post again. However, there really isn't room for either, so it's really an academic exercise...

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Locutus
To ensure balance, some resources are available on several terrain types and some branches of the advance tree can be opened up by (one of) several resources. Of course this is something I quickly threw together, it can't possibly be balanced properly, but it's a start...

Yes it is a start but a very good one

Originally posted by Locutus
As far as the wood/stone(/clay) debate goes, my opinion is that small amounts of stone/wood/clay/etc are always available, everywhere in the world. For building houses or weapons, it doesn't matter whether you live in desert, forest, grassland or tundra, there are (almost) always materials available for such things. For things like building the Pyramids, Stonehenge or Angkor Wat or whatever though, you need *huge* quantities of high-quality building material, you can't find these everywhere. Therefore I think Marble, Clay, Hardwood, etc *should* be resources but they shouldn't be necessary for basic units and buildings, just for wonders and maybe specific units/buildings (FE City Walls, but then the Stockade should also return for those who don't have these resources and still want city defenses).

I think this is the way to go: You don't have hard wood so you can't build huge constructions, but you can build small ones, same with marble and clay. Now it is the question if you really need marble to build a wall or if it will normal stone do too. My conclusion here is that you don't need the fine stone. Another aspect here is this "The rich gets richer problem" wouldn't be so huge, because not everyone could build the same wonders.

For paper: Actual there are alot of ways to make it. You could use grass, wool, cotton, wood. Actual you don't need speceal wood like hard wood just common wood that could be found in the nearest place. But a preriquisite for paper would be writing. Once you know writing you have to find a better and easier way to write something down.

For writing: I would make it rather event depending, once your first city has grown to size 5 for instance you need to write something down in order to be able to organize your growing civilization, alternative this advance could be researched if you founded you second city.

Salt: I think I will use the salt shaker as graphic for that Harlan presented in the Civ3 creation forum. The glass transparency effect will look wonderfull on a CTP2 map.



-Martin