Good Possibilities

[Martin Gühmann]

Here I like talk about everthing that is or could be possible to do with trade goods in CTP2. We know the Civ3 ressource system, that only allows you to build a certain unit if you have a certain ressource available.

For example you need oil to build tanks. But here comes a question into my mind: Why should I event a technology like oil refining if I don't know what it is oil. So inventing oil fuiled tanks without knowing how to fuil them is stupid and actual impossible.

So my idea is if a civ controlls a certain good it gets an advance, let's say in the example above advance_oil that enables the advance oil refining and then you can build your tanks and maybe some other advances.

Another idea would be to make some other advances depending on the terrain that the civ owns. For example if you only own grassland, dessert and plain tiles it should be difficuilt for to find some stone to event stone working. But if you own some forest or jungle tiles than you should get the tech to event something like wood working instead of stone working to build huge constructions.

The consequences of implementing these ideas would be a radical change of the tech tree, even more radical as the modifications in Cradle or MedPack2. It is not just adding and removing some techs from the tree. Both mods still offer a conventional tech tree, it is still linear. In this tech tree you will be able to make "jumps" and really breakthrough, because you found the ultimate good that enabled the superior weapon technology. Of course also one of your opponents could invent it.

So the idea is that a player can't invent everything, espeacily if not every good is on the map. But there is another idea to prevent a civ to invent everything, for example if a civ already invented wood working why they should invent stone working, if it can already build huge constructions. And if you steal an advance that you shouldn't own then you get a message that this particular advance is absolutly useless to you, because you already know the great advance of XXX that enables already the great things.

As I said above that this will result a radical change of the tech tree actual a complete new tech tree, with the consequence of huge modifications not only in the advance.txt, but also in the buildings.txt, wonders.txt, units.txt, governments.txt....

The result will be a new mod, so far the project title is GoodMod2: The Mod of Good dependent advances
The gameplay of this mod would be total different from the other mods here, because your progress in technology would be nearly completly dependent on goods. The difficuilty level would be dependent on the good slider. More goods means in this case more techs and more techs means an easier game. The game would be also very random, depending on the goods on the map.

As there is so much to change and to add, the task is huge, therefore this thread to get your ideas and thoughts and of course your help, about all the enabling goods for the advances, what wonders should be in, units buildings, government...

-Martin

[centrifuge]

Re: Good Possibilities

This is a great idea Martin, and I hope that work on it get's started right away

There are a couple things though...

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann But there is another idea to prevent a civ to invent everything, for example if a civ already invented wood working why they should invent stone working, if it can already build huge constructions.

I'm not sure that I agree with this point. For example, a Civ would need the lighter easier to work with wood for horse carts, weapons(spears, arrows...), and houses etc. However, Stone is going to be needed for more sturdy construction of things such as aqueducts and fortresses.

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Another idea would be to make some other advances depending on the terrain that the civ owns.

I assume that this means that if I start on an Island that is mostly forest, I will be able to research a certain path of techs...But, If I take over some territory that is mostly mountains, do I get a brand new choice of techs to research, in addition to the ones that were already available? If that is the case, If I lose the mountain land, then the new tech path would be lost, and any benefits that came with it...

This would make the Civ that has the most diverse starting territory the easy favorite of the game, which could be quite interesting, but also very frustrating

Overall, it sounds like a very good Idea, however, I think that the choices of tech paths and dependance, will need to be implemented very carefully.

Just my couple of cents

C

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by centrifuge
I'm not sure that I agree with this point. For example, a Civ would need the lighter easier to work with wood for horse carts, weapons(spears, arrows...), and houses etc. However, Stone is going to be needed for more sturdy construction of things such as aqueducts and fortresses.

The army stuff here is a good point that I didn't considered. But actual it isn't necceassry to build an aqueduct or a fortress out of stone, you could also use wood to fortify your positions.

Originally posted by centrifuge
I assume that this means that if I start on an Island that is mostly forest, I will be able to research a certain path of techs...But, If I take over some territory that is mostly mountains, do I get a brand new choice of techs to research, in addition to the ones that were already available? If that is the case, If I lose the mountain land, then the new tech path would be lost, and any benefits that came with it...

The result would be if you take over a territory rich of stone you can invent knew techs, because you know from that day the ressource stone and you have huge amounts of it available. Of course it would be insteresting to simulate the "forgetting" of techs. But this is very complicated, and your civ wouldn't forget the tech at once.

To go back to the oil example you got oil under your controll and therefore the oil tech that enables oil refining, now you discovered oil refining and tank warfare and you are now able to build tanks once you build some tanks you loose the oil good, mow you have less oil available then before. The conclusion wouldn't be to distroy your tanks, but you could reduce their movement points in order to make them a little bit less efficient.

Originally posted by centrifuge
This would make the Civ that has the most diverse starting territory the easy favorite of the game, which could be quite interesting, but also very frustrating

That's the idea behind it. And would be closer to reality, otherwise the tech developement in the world would be today on the same level everywhere. The plan is to use GoodMod1 as a base and there the AI expants already a lot, so that this wouldn't be the problem to help the AI in getting goods and you have to find ways to get techs. Of course tech trading should be also an option, but the benefits should be less.

Originally posted by centrifuge
Overall, it sounds like a very good Idea, however, I think that the choices of tech paths and dependance, will need to be implemented very carefully.

That's right and therefore this thread to find the best tech parth and dependances.

-Martin

[arktiem]

Re: Good Possibilities

Hey there!!

WOW! I have been away for a few days and come back to some exciting stuff!!

All right, Martin! This new GoodMod you are working on sounds really cool and I am looking very forward to heaing more about it. I have a LOT to catch up on, but will be carefully watching and would love to help in any way I can. Will post more later.

Arktiem

[child of Thor]

Martin, CTP2 needs this kind of thing - so good luck!
I won't argue any particular points on what you've said so far, i just think ANY good/terrain dependant techs or units/buildings that can be introduced to CTP2 will be a great thing to achieve.
Just one thing, on what your proposing - how would you stop one particular civ getting a huge advantage over the rest when they invent/get a particular advance/good?
In the example of oil(good) to allow oil refinery and tank, if only one civ gets the chance at this, is this a good thing? I gather from what you wrote above this would be the outcome of what your proposing?Just kinda wondering what your take on this - as i said any thing of this kind will be great, just wondering about the balance if it's easy for one civ to get a big lead tech/unit wise? Of course i may have got the wrong gist of what you wrote

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Just one thing, on what your proposing - how would you stop one particular civ getting a huge advantage over the rest when they invent/get a particular advance/good?

That was the idea behind the stone-work on the one hand and the wood-work on the other hand. Both stone and wood should allow you to construct huge buildings with similar effects but if you got one of them first your civ won't see any need to reasearch the other tech. And even if you get it by a goody hut afterwards the other one was discoverd, your poeple couldn't use it, because the knowledge of the other tech path is already deeper.

I think it is better to make a whole group of techs depending on one ressource then just one tech. For the oil example it would mean that if you get an oil good under your controll then you can research oil refining that would enable internal combustion and here begins it, can it be only fueled on the base of oil or are there alternatives. So at least it would enable internal combustion on the base of oil. After that tech you could develope tank warfare on the base of oil, if you lose the the oil good in the meanwhile then you can invent tanks nevertheless, but there are a little bit more inefficient, because your oil will be limited. That could be done if you keep the oil good then you tanks will get a significant movement bonus. You can imagine there are private and public goods on the world. Public goods are under the controll of a civ, private ones in the hand of private persons who can sell them to everyone they want. Of course this way of getting ressources is more expensive then if your civ has the good, herefore less move point in the case you don't own the good.

Of course there is another way of getting to know a ressource: Trading. So there is another way to invent tanks, but in the end tanks will be less effective.

The mean thing of this concept is that you only can do something with a thing if you know this thing, therefore if someone can invent it other civs will get the oppotunity, too. But of course not every civ. So far the trade concept looks a little bit more difficuilt. (But I think the SendGood event can give enough pieces of information, if there is not another way to get more information.)

Originally posted by arktiem
Will post more later.

So what keeps you from doing that arktiem? And that's a way to help, we have a lot of goods that can enable a tech group.


Here two other ideas:

Ship contruction: What here is required is a costial city, to use a ship you need a habour or a place at the coast where it makes sense to build a ship. Building and inventing a ship in the middle of the dessert is just stupid.

Slave Labour: This tech should only be invented if you know that there are other civs that can give you some workers, so if you don't know anyone you can be enslaved why to invent a tech that let you enslave other people. (This would be interesting if you have to find the right good first so that you can enslave other poeple or you can only free them. In the original game this decisson lies totally in the hand of the player.)

-Martin

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


That was the idea behind the stone-work on the one hand and the wood-work on the other hand. Both stone and wood should allow you to construct huge buildings with similar effects but if you got one of them first your civ won't see any need to reasearch the other tech. And even if you get it by a goody hut afterwards the other one was discoverd, your poeple couldn't use it, because the knowledge of the other tech path is already deeper.

I've been thinking hard on this concept, and believe it to be a good one, however, I don't like the idea of not "needing" to learn stone-working because you already know wood-working.

I think that anyone would have a very hard time thinking of any civilization throughout the history of the world that has not simultaneously used both woodworking and stoneworking. What it comes down to is that a civ will use the best technology that fits there needs, until another technology comes along that may fullfill those needs better. In the example of woodworking and stone working, A civ that knows how to make arrows and spears by sharpening a stick will do so, until they find that there is a more durable method of creating the spear and arrow points, by working with stone until it is sharpened. This is also, IMHO, the case with architecture. Sure, fortresses, aqueducts, etc. can be made with wood as well as stone, but that doesn't mean that a civ who already knows how to make a fortress from wood will not begin making them from stone, if the advance of stone working is stolen from another civ. The reason that I say this, is that stone is far more durable to fire and seige weapons, such as battering rams.

I guess that the point that I'm trying to make, is that a civ will work with the tools that it has available(thus the reason for this mod) but will also use the best materials for the job, so if it does learn about stone-working by stealing it from another civ, it is, IMHO, quite probable that the civ(with its newly aquired knowledge) will go in search for a source of stone.

Does this make sense? Or is it possible that I'm looking at the mod from a different direction than was originally intended?

-C-

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by centrifuge
I guess that the point that I'm trying to make, is that a civ will work with the tools that it has available(thus the reason for this mod) but will also use the best materials for the job, so if it does learn about stone-working by stealing it from another civ, it is, IMHO, quite probable that the civ(with its newly aquired knowledge) will go in search for a source of stone.

One thing you have to consider is that you can only use the best tool and materials that are available at a place, you are in a jungle and have only the trees and no stone available than you will build your houses out of wood.

And you have to consider that you don't need to build your houses out of wood if you use wooden weapons and of course the way around. So maybe I should rename the advances to wood construction and stone construction. But the question remains how close this concept to reality is, even if it should balance the civs out, so that they will end all different.

Originally posted by centrifuge
The reason that I say this, is that stone is far more durable to fire and seige weapons, such as battering rams.

That's really a point, in reality you can't really keep someone from adapting a tech, alternativly we could think about alternative techs that enable a group of techs that will lead in the end to the same result.



To give you an idea of how many goods could enable a tech here a list:

1. Rubies
2. Diamonds
3. Bauxite
4. Emeralds
5. Glass
6. Oil
7. Dates
8. Camels
9. Hardwood
10. Bears
11. Apples
12. Beavers
13. Cotton
14. Tobacco
15. Potatoes
16. Poppies
17. Coffee
18. Grapes
19. Uranium
20. Olives
21. Medicinal Herbs
22. Jade
23. Bananas
24. Sugar
25. Tea
26. Emerald
27. Coal
28. Gold
29. Spices
30. Elephant
31. Wheat
32. Buffalo
33. Alligator
34. Rice
35. Chilli
36. Peat
37. Caribou
38. Whales
39. Giant Squid
40. Tuna
41. Crabs
42. Pearls
43. Salmon
44. Lobster
45. Copper
46. Silver
47. Crabs
48. Fish
49. Dye
50. Iron Ore
51. Silver
52. Saphires
53. Emeralds
54. Seals
55. Walrus

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
One thing you have to consider is that you can only use the best tool and materials that are available at a place, you are in a jungle and have only the trees and no stone available than you will build your houses out of wood.

And you have to consider that you don't need to build your houses out of wood if you use wooden weapons and of course the way around. So maybe I should rename the advances to wood construction and stone construction. But the question remains how close this concept to reality is, even if it should balance the civs out, so that they will end all different.

That's really a point, in reality you can't really keep someone from adapting a tech, alternativly we could think about alternative techs that enable a group of techs that will lead in the end to the same result.
-Martin

I lived in a jungle for awhile and it had plenty of stone - infact the quality of the local stone tools was very high(lots of hard volcanic rock available). Hmmm apart from the ocean/deep sandydesert and central artic/antartic most places in the world have(accesable) stone, and the people used it from pre-historic times for tools and weapons. I would look at it more along the lines of any terrain tile(apart from the one's mentioned above) should have an element of stone available to be used, and maybe to get the distinction for large stone constructions you would need access to mountains or the advance of quarry or mine(?) This kinda thing. I know you are thinking of specifically using trade goods, but it does seem to have a slightly unrealistic aspect to it if your civ just can use either/or of a particular branch, some things just make sense to be used(stone/wood)if they are likely to be present.
On the other hand i think maybe you should just go for it with the more 'set-branched' tech tree idea and we can see how it all comes out in the wash - i'm sure you have spent alot of time planning and working it out so maybe it's best to leave the more 'subtle' stuff untill later.
It's just the wood/stone thing that is a bit contentious
Still it could be fun to play a predomently wooden-age civ(i'm thinking the flintstones or i guess woodblocks! )

EDIT: nice trade good list! lots of potential for good-specificness!

[HuangShang]

love the whole idea!!

this way the enemy is actual different from you, otherwise the normal game feel like everybody's European

using terrain might easy than goods because without goods one can't advance, making good tile the center of all wars (unless thats the whole idea)

[centrifuge]

Martin, That is one awesome list, the tech dependence potential seems almost limitless. I agree with COT, you as the modmaker already have the plan, so it will be nice to test an alpha version, at which point it will be easier to make comments and suggestions. I can hardly wait...

[Lou Wigman]

I think you need to be careful here. Even back in the stone age trade played a crucial role. Various peoples that had no suitable stone were able get arrow heads etc from quite far away. Thousands of kms in fact. There is no way these people travelled that far. There is ample circumstantial evidence that stone tool 'factories' existed in pre-history and that their output was widely traded.

In more recent times the American 'Indians' had wide ranging access to firearms even though they lacked the technology to produce them.

This illustrated the undoubted fact that not having the technology to produce something doesn't mean that you can't get hold of it. My own sorry country doesn't produce PCs but just about everybody has one.

Civ games tend to ignore this completely. Throughout history there has been enormous technology 'leakage'. What has made some civs more efficient than others is in their ability to use the available technology rather than having a short lived technological advantage.

It seems to me that far more importance needs to be placed on economic and social factors rather than simply on technology itself.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

[Locutus]

I think basically this is a good idea but, as pointed out, you have to be very, very careful about how you implement it: gamebalance can be lost very easily if it's not done properly. I might post more elaborate stuff later, don't have much time now...

[Pedrunn]

The idea is terrific! Amazing! Super! Another revolutionary idea from ctp2 modmaking!
I am already picturing a new tech tree.

Yet, Dont forget!
You also would need to make the AI hungry for goods. And knowing how to use them.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
I think you need to be careful here. Even back in the stone age trade played a crucial role. Various peoples that had no suitable stone were able get arrow heads etc from quite far away. Thousands of kms in fact. There is no way these people travelled that far. There is ample circumstantial evidence that stone tool 'factories' existed in pre-history and that their output was widely traded.

In more recent times the American 'Indians' had wide ranging access to firearms even though they lacked the technology to produce them.

This illustrated the undoubted fact that not having the technology to produce something doesn't mean that you can't get hold of it. My own sorry country doesn't produce PCs but just about everybody has one.

Civ games tend to ignore this completely. Throughout history there has been enormous technology 'leakage'. What has made some civs more efficient than others is in their ability to use the available technology rather than having a short lived technological advantage.

It seems to me that far more importance needs to be placed on economic and social factors rather than simply on technology itself.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

Actual you just participate in this thread and this is good. You gave me a reason to justify the invention (or discovery) of something like speers. A random event could give you this technology, once you founded a city, that would be a basic technology, so everyone is here equal.

And your post leads me to another idea, trade was there before cities were founded, so once you founded two cities you could an advance that allows you to research Inter-City-Trade, that would give you a trade unit with one move (trade) point. If you find the Camel Good than you can invent the Camel Domestication, that would allow Caravans, once you have domesticated Camels you can't lose this tech, because you have them and more from the good resource aren't necessary anymore to keep them.

Another idea would using the elephant good to enable war elephants.

Originally posted by Locutus
I think basically this is a good idea but, as pointed out, you have to be very, very careful about how you implement it: gamebalance can be lost very easily if it's not done properly. I might post more elaborate stuff later, don't have much time now...

Yes that is really a very serious problem, therefore I started this thread. So I am waiting for your ideas.

-Martin