AOM IV General Talking About Stuff

[Slow Motion]

Just installed AoM IV and found that it was almost what I was looking for. Almost.

Basically I just didn't enjoy the insane barbarians and the seemingly scripted progression. Apparently my King died and despite going throught the readmes for Aom, Aom IV, Cradle and Medieval I couldn't find anything that told me what to do about it or even what it meant, other than it was bad. The random 'oppurtunities' and such seemed irrelevant and that australian voice over I am trying to work out how to remove. Also whenever I met a new civilisation they just zergrushed me to death, no diplomacy, no negotiation, nothing, and with the sort of production I couldn't even dream of matching so early in the game (how do they do that?). And this was only playing on medium. What I liked was the more involved combat, the extra trade, espionage, the huge maps etc. Extra units to edit, that sort of thing. The terrain on the maps seemed to be much better developed and terrain types more usefully combined.

So here starteth the discussion, how do I go about removing the stuff I don't like?

Or, would it be better to just start with CTP2 and try and build from there? Basically I would like to extend trade, combat and diplomacy all the while playing gigantic maps.

[hexagonian]

Try Cradle III, (and use either the default or the Apolyton Edition update too) located here...

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=12

The readmes in the download go into greater depth as to what are the differences between AoM and Cradle. Cradle was the foundation for AoM, and Cradle III eliminates the very features that you do not like in AoM.

I've been using the Apolyton Edition, which also tends to give better diplomacy.

[Slow Motion]

Try Cradle III, (and use either the default or the Apolyton Edition update too) located here...

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=12

The readmes in the download go into greater depth as to what are the differences between AoM and Cradle. Cradle was the foundation for AoM, and Cradle III eliminates the very features that you do not like in AoM.

I've been using the Apolyton Edition, which also tends to give better diplomacy.

Except for the copius barbarians that seem to win every fight, no matter how out numbered no matter what they're attacking with. Oh well. Better than nothing I guess.

[hexagonian]

What Barb setting are you using? The highest setting generates a lot of them.

Use a lower setting, or you can modify CRARR4_risks.txt to your liking.

I play with the next-to-highest setting and they are manageable.

Any other impressions?

[Maquiladora]

Weren't there extra barbarians and barbarian leaders in AoM that were generated by slic? If so he would have to modify the slic code.

[Slow Motion]

What Barb setting are you using? The highest setting generates a lot of them.

Use a lower setting, or you can modify CRARR4_risks.txt to your liking.

I play with the next-to-highest setting and they are manageable.

Any other impressions?

I don't actually know. I just installed and fired up the game so I am guessing the defaults. I was thinking about modifying it but thought I'd just play through and see what happend. I am playing Cradle III through to 2300AD. I couldn't see anything that allowed me to adjust barbarian level so I just went with it.

I have had constant problems with barbarians roving around and am keeping about 10 units per city, and nomads have escorts of usually about 5 units. A stack of 12 barbarians appeared and took over the 3rd city I established and it took 2 stacks with archers and warriors against slingers, spearmen and warriors to take it back. I lost about 16 units. The also seem to have better units than I do, not long after I took back my city they were running around with hoplites. I am trying to get legions so I can crush them, see them driven before me and hear the lamentations of their women.

They are agressive as hell. They also seem to appear out of nowhere half the time. Stacks of 3-5 are common. They'll appear and attack single unit stacks almost as a given. I've had stacks of three units camped outside my city attacked and destroyed.

From what I have seen from the rest of the game it's looking pretty good. I like the visible wonders, but it's a bit of a problem if I have to farm the land they're on as the farm replaces the wonder graphic. It would be nice if it didn't. Diplomacy I don't know as I have only encountered one other civ and they seem ok, though they did just cross my border with a 6-strong stack of hoplites. I have run out of things to build so I am building up my military to use the excess production. Researching republic, using city state. I want to have an interesting trade/diplomacy game rather than just zergrushing my opponents.

Leading science, a goddamn midget on everything else. I like the different wonders you can build and there seem to be lots of different paths you can take which is also very interesting. Playing my usual science heavy developement heavy expansion game, and running out of things to build has given me the oppotunity to create the military needed to protect my nomads and cities at least. So the game seems to accomodate the necessary change in strategy; in the original games of CTP 1 & 2 I could easily get by with only having a couple of defensive units per city and then a standing army later, around gunpowder time but didn't have time to build any extra units anyway.

I was intending to modify and introduce new modern age units when I get there as I think Activisions are an ill thought-out joke. Honestly, battleships see further than bombers and don't get me started on the rest. But anyway.

I'll keep you posted the rest of the way through if you want. You're the mod developer I assume?

Weren't there extra barbarians and barbarian leaders in AoM that were generated by slic? If so he would have to modify the slic code.

I've pretty much given AoM up I think. I want a game that doesn't require constant warfare and expansion to win; I find that boring and CTC is seemingly more playable for that anyway. CTC had issues with cruise missiles bombarding from 10 squares away though and the nukes wouldn't effect anything other than cities; unit stacks were completely immune to being attacked directly with them. Maybe I'll go back and give it a run through just to see but probably won't stick to it much.

[hexagonian]

I'll keep you posted the rest of the way through if you want. You're the mod developer I assume?

It's my (8 year old) baby...

I don't actually know. I just installed and fired up the game so I am guessing the defaults. I was thinking about modifying it but thought I'd just play through and see what happened. I am playing Cradle III through to 2300AD. I couldn't see anything that allowed me to adjust barbarian level so I just went with it.

See screenshot below for the Barbarian settings to set before starting a game (use Difficulty button). BTW, the screenshot also gives an indication of my next project

I have had constant problems with barbarians roving around and am keeping about 10 units per city, and nomads have escorts of usually about 5 units. A stack of 12 barbarians appeared and took over the 3rd city I established and it took 2 stacks with archers and warriors against slingers, spearmen and warriors to take it back. I lost about 16 units. The also seem to have better units than I do, not long after I took back my city they were running around with hoplites. I am trying to get legions so I can crush them, see them driven before me and hear the lamentations of their women.

...They are agressive as hell. They also seem to appear out of nowhere half the time. Stacks of 3-5 are common. They'll appear and attack single unit stacks almost as a given. I've had stacks of three units camped outside my city attacked and destroyed.

My guess is that you do have it on the highest barb settings. Here are some tips though.

- Barbs generate from unscouted black tiles, so scout heavily in the early game to clear them out. The Scout unit is dirt cheap and can clear a lot of ground. Build a lot of them, but when you get a chance to upgrade them to Jav Cavalry, do not upgrade them all because they can see Prophets and Slavers and the Jav Cavalry cannot.
-Mobility is of the upmost importance. I cannot stress that enough. Build inner roads to link up your cities asap, even before Farms and Pastures.
- Set up a perimeter of Scouts and Jav Cavalry on all of your borders to track all incoming stacks. Intercept as needed.
- Build the House of Sargon. He enslaves, is very mobile and is a powerful unit to boot. I have limited Battle slaving to a few of the Great House units, so you need to take advantage of that ability whenever you can. Slaving is a good way to grow cities without farms and/or pastures

REMEMBER...
Defense is important in Cradle, and it can be done if you use your forces wisely. Units fortified in cities get a lot of bonuses, so it does not surprise me that you needed the numbers you did to retake the city. This is historical too...sieges were high-cost affairs.

From what I have seen from the rest of the game it's looking pretty good. I like the visible wonders, but it's a bit of a problem if I have to farm the land they're on as the farm replaces the wonder graphic. It would be nice if it didn't.

...actually you shouldn't replace them...as it is a tile improvement, the visible wonder generates.
BonusProduction 15
BonusGold 15
BonusFood 15

Mouseover should reveal this.

Diplomacy I don't know as I have only encountered one other civ and they seem ok, though they did just cross my border with a 6-strong stack of hoplites. I have run out of things to build so I am building up my military to use the excess production. Researching republic, using city state. I want to have an interesting trade/diplomacy game rather than just zergrushing my opponents.

I'll be honest, diplomacy is the one feature of CTP2 that has never been handled well, although using Cradle through the Source Code Apolyton project has softened out some of the rough edges a bit.

Leading science, a goddamn midget on everything else. I like the different wonders you can build and there seem to be lots of different paths you can take which is also very interesting. Playing my usual science heavy developement heavy expansion game, and running out of things to build has given me the oppotunity to create the military needed to protect my nomads and cities at least. So the game seems to accomodate the necessary change in strategy; in the original games of CTP 1 & 2 I could easily get by with only having a couple of defensive units per city and then a standing army later, around gunpowder time but didn't have time to build any extra units anyway.

AoM was designed to force the player to focus all of his strategies toward military. There is historical support for this, BTW, because warfare and conquest has driven history. Cradle also started out as a military-first focus. But the strategies become too repetitive, and since this is first and foremost a game, Cradle has evolved to provide a greater variety of approaches for the player. I firmly believe that even though AoM may have more game features (micro), Cradle offers a much higher replayability factor because Cradle has more macro strategy options.

I was intending to modify and introduce new modern age units when I get there as I think Activisions are an ill thought-out joke. Honestly, battleships see further than bombers and don't get me started on the rest. But anyway...

You can easily adjust numbers in the (CRARR4...)Units.txt files.

Weren't there extra barbarians and barbarian leaders in AoM that were generated by slic? If so he would have to modify the slic code.

Stan's code is over and above the number of barbarians generated in a normal CTP2 game...and since the events were scripted on specific turns, it meant that every game follows the same track, regardless of the playing difficulty level and the civ you choose to play. For me this seriously weakens the overall design.

So much of Stan's coding is interwoven, that you really know what you are doing to get rid of it.

[Slow Motion]

Haaaa. For some reason I developed a complete blind spot to that side of the screen. That's hilarious. Ok.

I have my own tweaking of modern units that I've developed through CTP 1&2 and raid the Civ3 graphics pack for sprites I prefer. They're not animated though but oh well.

Thanks for the information, it's been very helpful indeed.

One question on adding new civilisations though. Can I do this the usual way or is there extra work due to the extra civ bonuses?

[hexagonian]

One question on adding new civilisations though. Can I do this the usual way or is there extra work due to the extra civ bonuses?

You will have to add the info to several files to give the new civs some bonuses

CIVS:
CRARR4_civ_str.txt
CRARR4_civilisation.txt


TRAITS:
CRARR4C_feats.txt
CRARR4C_feats.slc
CRASLC_traits.slc
CRASLC_traits2.slc
and
CRARRC_traits.str.txt

[Slow Motion]

You will have to add the info to several files to give the new civs some bonuses

CIVS:
CRARR4_civ_str.txt
CRARR4_civilisation.txt


TRAITS:
CRARR4C_feats.txt
CRARR4C_feats.slc
CRASLC_traits.slc
CRASLC_traits2.slc
and
CRARRC_traits.str.txt

Cheers. Here's a question though, why can't I build legions? The Great Library says all you need is Iron Working which I have, and I am trying to research barracks but it won't set it as a goal. Is the library entry incomplete?

[Slow Motion]

I ask this question because even the barbarians seem to have them, or more. I can only build hoplites which are getting slaughtered by much smaller stacks.

[hexagonian]

Sorry, this needs to be fixed in the Great Library...

If you are playing with the government specific setup, (Phoenix Epic) you will also need to be in the following governments to build the following units.

Dynasty - Warrior
City-State - Hoplite
Oligarchy - Hypaspists, Elephant Warriors
Republic - Pezheterois
Dictatorship - Praetorians
Tribunal Empire - Legion
Monarchy - Man-At- Arms, Pikemen, Knight
Theocracy - Man-At-Arms, Pikemen, Teutonic Knight
Caliphate - Janissary

With the rise of Nationalism and the modern forms of government, armies became more professionsl/nationalistic and the game reverts back to the usual setup.

The logic is because I wanted to make government switching a major decision for the player, as well as the fact that historically, government-switches created huge social upheavals.

The units are primarily front-liners and are the backbone of your forces, so losing them will put you at risk.

In CTP2, as well as civ, a government switch is merely an inconvenience. In the past, it was too easy in CTP2 and all of the Mods to simply build front-line units and snowball your way to victory, because front-liners are the most important. Now you have to pay close attention to the makeup of your forces...depend too much on those types of units, and when you switch, you will lose a lot of your military.

Build too few and military expansionism is hard.

It works for you too...if a neighbor civ takes a dive on military, that is the time to take advantage of them.

The game design stresses a balancing act.


For Modding purpose...
If you do not like the setup, go into (CRARR...)units.txt and remove the entry

GovernmentType GOVERNMENT_(government type)

from all the units that you do not want to have that trait.

[hexagonian]

I ask this question because even the barbarians seem to have them, or more.

Most Barbarians are spawned, based on the tech that is in the game at the time, and is not dependent on anything else.

I do also want to stress that military is still very important in Cradle. You will be in trouble if you skimp in this area...and historically, a civ that did not maintain a military ended up as roadkill. The main difference between Cradle and AoM is that you HAVE to expand militarily on AoM to win...in Cradle, you do not have to pursue that strategy to win. It's up to you.

I always expand peacefully away from a rival civ, and try to maintain as many large buffers of empty land between me and my rivals for as long as possible. Expand towards the sea because it is a natural buffer, and use mountains as another buffer.

I also tend to play defensively and generally do not expand militarily until I get access to Forts. Forts allow units to heal in one turn, so it makes it easier to preserve my forces. If you have a Great House unit, it will from time to time, generate a military recruit after a battle.

I also maintain a watch on all surrounding lands. Getting Watchtowers helps in this area. And I usually limit expansion to one front and keep a strong defensive force on all others. If I can keep a good defense, my inner cities can pursue a builder/commerce strategy.

In a recent game, I kept the Greeks from expanding by killing all the Nomads that they sent out, then I spend time building up my forces, and generated a bunch of Elites and Heroes out in the field. I got to Tribunal Empire and then built Legions and sent them all west to Greek lands. With Elite and Hero support, as well as a couple of Great House units, I was able to cut through them because I had culled them and kept them weak. I maintained a solid defense on all other fronts and was able to use terrain to limit what I had to guard.

It took time and patience and planning, but it worked.

BTW, what civ are you playing...and what (strong) civs are you up against. Some civs have a lot of bonuses, some do not. The way I have the civs structured allows the player to base difficulty on what civ he chooses to play too.

[Slow Motion]

Playing Roman.

I was aware of the government linked units, unfortunately as you said the Great Library was incomplete so I ended up thrashing around for awhile with a third rate army, researching anything that sounded like it might give me legions. When I took the plunge and spent the 30 turns developing Republic everything changed and those pez-something-like-legions turned the game around. I was having problems with the Vikings invading constantly, making and then breaking ceasefires with me repeatedly and lost a city to them (they were constantly attacking another 3) and lost another two cities to barbarians. But then I built three stacks of those not-quite-legions and onagers and crushed them. At that point my empire nearly collapsed because of the city limit, and after switching to Tribunal Empire --> Monarchy finally got everything stabilised (lol'd at having to rebuild most of my armies from scratch again, twice). Then I lost to the Hebrews and the religious victory condition. Doh, didn't pay enough attention to the other new dynamics in the game. Tried going for Pax Romana and went back to save games three times, but still didn't have enough time to devalope Nationalism. Quick question, what exactly does it mean to cover 75% of the world with colonies? I have to go and build them on every landmass? Bit ambiguous and I couldn't find anything clarification in the readmes. And can I play on after winning like the original CTP2? Had some minor problems with the Minoans raiding but the only people on the continent were myself and the Vikings and a couple of hundred stacks of barbarians.

I am considering starting that map from scratch again and going for Pax Romana because it was a really good map and now I know the terrain. I'll just have to be more careful with the tech-tree and expansion. Now I have a better idea of the governments each unit requires I'll leave in government dependancy; I think it makes the game more fun and at least it applies to the bad guys too; otherwise meh.

So far the best civ mod I have played and is very close to what I wanted it to be. The main problem with the other CTPs was that trade and diplomacy were pretty much irrelevant and once you worked out the tech tree you could play it out and win every time. This is a bit more complex. I don't have huge experience with the diplomacy/trade in this game yet, but doesn't cradle include diplomod anyway? Regardless the basic sort of gameline is much better and once I get to the modern age I'll just put all my own modern units into the game and it'll be fine.

Saying that, are nukes and cruise missiles still broken in this? I found that in CTC and CTP2 unit stacks were unaffected by direct nuke hits and the computer players could bombard me with cruise missiles from 10 squares away. That is they'd fly the missile to the limit of it's range, it would explode there and my city 10 squares or so away would be damaged. I got to watch it all on Globesat. Yay. Couldn't work out how to fix it so I assumed it was a Slic problem rather than just unit variables.

Your feedback is appreciated.

[hexagonian]

Thanks for the compliment about the Mod...it's great to hear that this is one of the best., and thanks for the feedback..this will help me, although I am hip-deep in my next CTP2 project, so any future alterations to Cradle are on the back burner. If you are comfortable with making file alts on some of the mechanics, do so by all means and I will probably incorporate the files you change if I like the direction. Most of the current round of changes are experimental and probably could use some finetuning anyhow. Because I do not get a lot of feedback, I have to do the playtesting myself and so the issues that may be important to other players do not dawn on me.

One thing to be aware of...Cradle is primarily an Ancient/Medieval Mod and so the game mechanics are focused on those periods. I have never played a CTP2 game past the Middle Ages, so I am not sure how things work in the Modern Ages.

1. I'd consider the Romans to be one of the more powerful civs in the game. And it is good to hear that the Hebrews actually won the Religious victory...it is the one victory condition that the AI is supposed to have a shot at. The Hebrews are more powerful than anticipated too...in my current game they are running first. I'm guessing that the +3 Happiness is more powerful than I thought it would be. They also get a natural Religious bonus, but this does not help them in anything other than the Religious victory.

2. Pax Romana requires 75% map coverage of the tile improvement Colonies. Those improvements have a sphere of influence that you can see if you activate the Gaia Controller screen (20 tile radius). These can be placed if you can see the terrain on the map...you do not need a unit or city or national border. The are very expensive too...8,000 PW per.

You also need a specific number of buildings (this info should also be on the GC screen) I do know that the Great Library gives better specifics for this condition (Concepts > Victory Conditions).

On a Gigantic map, this will take a very long time to pull off because of the cost involved and total area of coverage. But the AI cannot pull this off, so you will not lose this if you go this route...but you do have to take the Religious victory into account, and the downside is that every game will be driven by a Religious victory. Either the AI wins with it or you win with it or via conquest or Pax Romana.

The game does ends when a victory is won.

You may also consider dropping the costs of all the Advances to speed up the game for you own setup.