7th Apolyton CtP2 SP Tournament: 8 October - 8 November 2004

[Shadow]

LOL

Well done EPW!

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Shadow
Can I post the game as is?

Yes, you can. I'll give you a few days extra to submit your results if you want. That goes for everyone else as well of course.

Congrats EPW

[Shadow]

Cheers Loc, give me a bit to get back home and I'll post it asap.

[EPW]

Apparently I didn't win.

Congrats Lewand.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Locutus
Yes, you can. I'll give you a few days extra to submit your results if you want. That goes for everyone else as well of course.

Several people told me they would still like to participate in the tournament but don't have enough time, so I'll extend the tournament with 2 weeks, until 28 November.

If anyone needs more time than that please let me know, but I did plan on having at least one more tournament before the end of the year so please try to finish (or at least submit your result) in time. It's a bit of a pitty that those people who do finish in time have to wait so long for the next tourney every time...

[EPW]

Originally posted by Locutus
It's a bit of a pitty that those people who do finish in time have to wait so long for the next tourney every time...

All two of us

[Maquiladora]

We're so sad

I dont mind waiting really, I get plenty competitive CtP2 fix.

[Locutus]

There's an issue that should be discussed for the next tournament: in lewand's game, he built far, far more cities than his empire could normally sustain. He managed to do this because he spent the last (few) turn(s) of the game in Anarchy (which has a city limit of 1000) and only came out of it in the very turn in which he was able to win the game. Had the game lasted one turn longer, his entire empire would have revolted due to empire size penalties and he would have lost. In fact, this is exaxtly what happens if you end the turn rather than take the last city in his savegame (though it takes the game a long, long time to process this event).

One might see this as a undesirable exploit to artificially boost the score. However, there's nothing in the rules that forbids this strategy, so obviously his score will be counted normally.

But that begs the question: for future tournaments, should there be an extra condition to prevent such an 'exploit'? Something like: a submitted result is not valid (1) if the victory cannot be postponed one turn and (2) a victory is achieved while the government is in Anarchy or the effects of Anarchy are still active.

What do people think? Should such a rule (or some other rule) be enforced for future tournaments or is leward's strategy acceptable and does not require rule changes?

[J Bytheway]

It would seem to make more sense to decrease the city limit of Anarchy - ever since I saw how large it was I thought there must be exploits involving it...

Failing that, it does seem a little silly to allow a victory which is futile because if they game were played on for only a few turns the victor's empire would collapse upon itself. This will, however, inevitably be a difficult thing to pin down. Prohibiting victories which cannot be postponed one turn will simply result in victories which cannot be postponed two turns. Banning victories while in anarchy seems a little unfair (overly prohibitive), but OTOH it does seem to fit with the game more (it's hardly a glorious victory to be (not) leading an anarchic state into a bold future). Even then, however, banning victories on the turn after anarchy is a little dubious. Nevertheless, I think this latter solution is probably the better of the two, at least until and unless other similar exploits are uncovered.

[Maquiladora]

While I admired leward's ingenuity, its not really part of the game so I'd vote for an extra condition next time, like #2 you mentioned. Otherwise we're creating more work for ourselves and we'll all be doing it anyway and for no other reason other than to have the same chance.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
It would seem to make more sense to decrease the city limit of Anarchy - ever since I saw how large it was I thought there must be exploits involving it...

Basically I agree, in fact I've argued for this for ages. However, the tournaments use pre-existing mods -- such decisions would be up to the modmakers, not the tournament organiser.

Banning victories while in anarchy seems a little unfair

Well, if someone happens to win a game and 'genuinely' happens to be in Anarchy, they can still win by simply postponing their victory one or two turns -- that shouldn't make much of a difference for the final score (or endyear), while still preventing the exploitation of Anarchy.

[EPW]

I'll go along with both of those rules.

[Martin Gühmann]

Well the problem is, that the startegy we observed, is a tournerment specific strategy. You don't find it under any other conditions. And I don't think that this is the spirit of the tournerment. The spirit of the tournerment is to find the best CTP2 player, and that means who has the best playing style the style that is used in private games and not for a tournerment. So a victory shouldn't be accepted if the empire is damned to collapse soon after the victory. So this means that there must be a way to continue a few turns after the victory without the use of Anarchy. So this means if the empire collapses in the turn after the victory or the victory is postponed one turn and the empire then collapses the game should be invalid, the same should be true if the player is in Anarchy and cannot leave it for one turn without the collapse of his empire. So it isn't a problem whether the player is in Anarchy in the victory turn, but the problem is whether the player can leave Anarchy without the risk to loose the empire.

-Martin

[lewand]

I just want to say hi, I'm new to the site.
I spent the last 2 turns of the game in Anarchy, because I wanted to enact Democracy (I played all the time Communismus). I don’t need Anarchy to build in last turn 50 cities (#2). I can have 150 cities in the turn of victory and I can postpone my victory one turn or 2 turns and more (#1). The problem is, can man artificially boost the score? What is the spirit of the tournament: competition amongst players, the best score, both of them or something else? Where exactly is the border of the artificiall pumping the score? EPW hat 5 settlers in his last turn. He can build 5 cities and get 50 points extra. Is it allowed? Can man build Wonders (for 500 points each), which aren’t necessary to win? etc... A few newbie questions:
How can I make screenshots and what are they for?
Can I play more than once the same game (I have the advantage of knowing the map and starting locations)? I saved my game each year and if something went wrong, I replayed the last 1 or 2 turns. Is it allowed? If I broke the rules, please erase my score. :
P.S.
Sorry EPW. I didn’t want to spoil your joy of victory. I didn’t think, that time for submit was over.

[Maquiladora]

Can I play more than once the same game (I have the advantage of knowing the map and starting locations)?

You can only submit officially your first try.

I saved my game each year and if something went wrong, I replayed the last 1 or 2 turns.

That would definitely be against the rules to me...