Normal maps vs. Huge maps

[WesW]

I would like to start a discussion on the differences between standard-sized maps and the huge maps that some of you play with, like Nordicus' world map.

I play with normal-sized maps, and six players, and am designing the Med mod to fit these parameters. One of the things I want to do eventually is have different verisons of the Med mod for different map sizes and numbers of civs.
For those of you who favor huge maps, what files need to be adjusted for play with these maps? Also, what factors of the game get distorted because of the larger distances and, perhaps, numbers of cities each civ has? These two questions are related, I know, but both need to be asked.

[Gregurabi]

On a huge map, if you attempt to conquer the world, you will run into the empire size limits. You have to disband a lot of cities in order to avoid lethal unhappiness.

Being farther away also means you have to be more aggressive in order to reach the most distant AI before it builds the alien.

[curtkath]

My girlfriend and I regularly have played the various Medieval mod incarnations on the gigantic map setting, and two main problems crop up:
The AIs are never as aggressive as we are in sending settlers or stealth units to new islands/continents, so we always have territory as an advantage;
and on the default resource level, trade works well enough, but the entire world may have, say, only 2 or 3 bananas, not much for a monopoly; maxing out the setting fixes this while overloading the # of resources.
Otherwise, the mod translates quite well to a large map.

[lago]

What's the expiration for the East India Company? On a big map, I usually find the extra movement point really helpful.

Also, as mentioned, the empire sizes (if you're playing CD's mod) are pretty low for large maps. Restoring them to their original values would be helpful. Especially Fascism: 45 cities on a gigantic map is nothing.

[WesW]

Most of these problems seem fixable. Keep the imput coming; this is just what I wanted.

Btw, East India goes out with Mass Production.

[curtkath]

Another aspect of the gigantic-map Medieval mod games that makes much mischief beyween Kathleen and I is: who gets to Lighthouse, Ramayama and Confucius Academy first; that usually clinches which of us will shoot ahead in expansion, of course. Sometimes an AI will get one or more of these, but again, they never seem to use them to build on rich new lands.
And while I've seen in the forums that the Forge is too potent at 50% production, in our games it seems balanced, having so much to do and conquer and all.

[WesW]

I think we need to make a distinction here between large numbers of civs, and large civs (civs with more than 16 or so cities).
Each situation will have its own set of problems, so when you post, please note if you mean one or both of these situations. Note that you can have large civs on normal-sized maps.

[curtkath]

Good point, Wes; all of my comments here refer to 8 civs only

[johnc]

I like to play the game with 8 civs on a gigantic map, I think this makes each game last a lot longer. (sometimes I can play on one game for 3 - 4 days(not solidly of course)) whereas if I just want a quick game I put it on a small map with 5 civs.

[WesW]

One quick fix you can do on your own: Open the govern.txt, in the default gamedata directory, and change the line TOO_MANY_CITIES_THRESHOLD 25

for each government to whatever setting you think would be appropriate for the civ sizes you play with.

Getting the AIs to be more expansionistic can be done, but it gets complicated. Different flis and aips have code for telling when continents are full, and to give bonuses to settling islands. Others lines describe stressing ships over land units. Still others dictate whether to build settlers or not, and how many to build at any one time.
Myself, I feel that once you get above 20 or so cities, it is just more of the same. I will build more than that if the opportunity arises, but I usually design my maps so that the AIs each have space for about 15 good cities on their home continent. This is for the initial founding stage. The later government types are for when you conquer other civs, and for sea and space cities. For me, then, the settings that CD developed are about right.
This is about what the game designers set the AIs up for as well, so to increase it, and do it without unbalancing other aspects of the game, is pretty involved.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited April 29, 2000).]

[TheBirdMan]

I have played on huge maps for more than ½ year now.

I have started writing.

Send my comments tomorrow.

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Woodstock was here!

[MadWoodster]

About a month ago I wrote a terrain file for WesW's Mod which allowed units to move faster, this was written specifically with large maps in mind. I am also working on other files to modify WesW's mod to make it easier. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to solve the problem with the AI not sending out enough settlers, as I've not delved into AI that much yet.
The terrain file is avaiable from:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/terrain.txt

and the readme file is at:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/readme.txt

This should be stay combatible with WesW's mod's unless he modifies the terrain files.
I'll upload a DiffDB.txt file and a Const.txt file hopefully by the end of the week, depending on how my coursework goes.

[Nordicus]

Hey, Wes....

Seems like this Med Mod 3 is something worth checking out after all

Well, pollution.txt has to be changed to account for for civs w/ more massive civilizations (& and incredible amounts of pollution), govern.txt (TOO_MANY_CITIES_THRESHOLD and empire distance values, as well as war discontent due to too many units--> bigger civ=bigger army to defend civ), map.txt, Const.txt, and of course userprofile.txt for the number of civs. Colors.txt ought to be altered as well, in order to prevent repeating colors (confusion) among civs. And I like to mess with risks.txt to increase the strength, frequency, and quantity of barbarians on bigger maps (182 X 364 to 246 X 492) and 32 civs, that way entering any area devoid of actual civilizations won't be a walk thru a park, not with tough, barbarian hordes lurking about.
Finally, depending on the increase in map size, I'd slightly raise by 1 all naval vessels' movement, having so much more water out there.
Prob'ly missed something. Aw well.

Thomas.

[TheBirdMan]

HELP - work are taking all my time.

My contribution has to wait until weekend or start next week.

To Nord: Yes you have forgot some issues..... and I (partly) disagree with you for babarians, movements and capitol distance... In what way - I'll tell this later.

See you.....


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Woodstock was here!

[MadWoodster]

I've now uploaded a const.txt file and a DiffDB.txt file, these change things such as distance unhappiness.

The DiffDB.txt only has limited changes mainly reducing the number of starting advances as I don't see why you should start with these especially on big maps.

The files are available from http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/Const.txt http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/DiffDB.txt

and belong in the scenario/Medieval/Default/Gamedata
directory

there is also a readme file for these files at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/readme2.txt