Maps

[Locutus]

I must admit I haven't played an awful lot of Civ2 games (about 2 years ago I was still playing on a slow 486 and a XT , Civ1 was the only Civ-game that ran on those systems), especially not when it comes down to scenarios, but I must admit that side-by-side fighting is pretty rare in any Civ game.
And of course a scenario shouldn't be too realistic, but I don't really like playing a WWII scenario in which I play the British and find myself fighting the Americans with the Germans as my allies or fighting the Germans but with the Americans standing on the sideline doing absolutely nothing.
Anyway, I think I'll just give it a try. If I fail at least no-one can say that I didn't try I'll download some maps to get an idea of what size the map should be and let you, Don, know if I need a customized map. Since I have plenty of other things to do as well the work won't go very fast, but at least someone is giving it a try...

Locutus

[skorpion59]

Locutus,

I see your point but I actually think that can be addressed. Since it is a scenario, customization will help. You can make the Americans, Britains, French the same personality types while making Germans a separate type and even the Russians something else. This alone will not fix the problem but I think you see where I am coming from. Even new, custom types can be created.

You are like me. You need to add one more thing to your plate about as much as you need a hole in your head. However, if your willing, I would be willing to help. (Did those words just come out of my mouth?) I firmly believe that once people see what can actually be accomplished, they would be more willing to start creating some scenarios.

UPDATE: I just read Paul's government idea in the Creation-Different Racial Attributes thread. This concept could also be applied to further bind together allies as well as be used to keep Civs from building other Civs units. Just a thought.

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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 18, 2000).]

[Locutus]

Don,

So you're saying I'm gonna have to go into the AI-files he? I was afraid of that. I tried it several times already but so far I can't make heads or tails of it Well, I guess I give it another try. I think I'll eventually need some help from the specialists on this area though...

Don't worry about me doing too much: once the MedMod stuff (can't be too much work anymore) and the flat-map stuff (which has to be finished first anyway, it's needed for the scenario) is finished , I only have the SLIC work for the SLIC-group and the WWII scenario. I should be able to handle that. And as you said, once people see what is possible, they'll start making things themselves, so it's important someone starts it.
I'm going to need help with this scenario, so your offer is much appreciated and gladly accepted. I'll start a thead about this in the Creation Forum tomorrow or so (I first have to pass an important exam) and see what help I need and can get.

Yes, the Racial Attributes thread offers some interesting points for this and any other scenario.

Well, off to my study-books now...

Locutus

[Nordicus]

Don, no, I haven't seen it yet either. I haven't seen the AI use nukes at all either--another thing worthy of modification
I did have an ally, during AAIPs testing, start to fight a common emeny, but this was only after I got its regard up to Worship and it was attacked by the civ. It (the Chinese) marched two stacks of units across my territory and put a city under seige. (Then I wiped out whatever civ that was and backstabbed the Chinese, so I never saw more of this ) I don't know if a peaceful civ would have had the nuts to try that...maybe if they were next the civ, but I thought that was really something for a civ who was nowhere near its enemy....If that setting could be maintained for a long time, in the AI's mind, then we might have something....

Locutus:
You and Gemini really ought to talk--he's still working on his own WWII scenario, but I'm sure he'd appreciate some help (he wants to finish before next winter!)
Maybe start a thread on it...maybe there'll be some people open to help on it now, I dunno....


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"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"If you don't agree with me, you're in denial."

[skorpion59]

When I have been able to maintain alliances through an entire game, I had to be very nice to them. Once you stab them in the back, they never forget it.

The AI flat doesn't use Nukes. Even when I have given them Nukes and then started Nuking them, they wouldn't Nuke back. (Locutus, this is one reason Nukes will not be a problem for flat-map support.)

And, yes, to do the allied thing like you are talking about (in a WW2 scenario), AIPs will have to be altered.



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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

[Nordicus]

Yes, I know.

The thing to do would be to get into the aips and play around with the PRIORITIES of the AI--like double plant_nuke_priority (when does the AI actually do this?) and double nuke_city_priority.

[Hey, just saw this-->
double defuse_mines_priority
again. Forgot about that--they had tried to get mines into CtP, hey? I wonder if that is possible with Slic....]

Anyway, these and the MAX_EVAL and MAX_EXEC goals per city should be adjusted...as well as the build list.

[skorpion59]

Nord,

Nope, the code for the mines (land mines) has not been completed. It is just another unimplemented feature.


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

[WesW]

I don't to rain on any parades here, but I would be very surprised to anyone was able to get the AIs to work together properly to simulate allies, especially with the complexities of an amphibious landing like you are talking about for a WWII sim. Hell, we can't get the AI to make amphibious landings much in a regular game!
None of the Civ games have an AI capable of doing this, and I am afraid ctp's AI just doesn't have it in it either, regardless of how much you adjust the aidata files.
I am fairly sure it would have to be done through the diplomacy files, though. I don't know much about those, so if you want to give it a try, no one would be happier to see you succeed than me.

I would suggest setting up this scenario for multiplayer, perhaps with different verisons for different numbers of human players. You could let the AI handle the neutrals, but the main players would have to be human to get realistic games, imo.

[skorpion59]

Wes,

I think we all know it is impossible (those of us that have worked on this area before anyway) and I personally don't want to play the game that way.

However, others want scenarios to work that way so I figured it wouldn't hurt to try a few things just to see what happens.

No Civ game yet has even come close to getting past the "All Civs for Themselves Only" mentality. That is simply not built into the game.

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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 26, 2000).]

[Nordicus]

Wes:
No, I don't rationally forsee any historical World War-type cooperation. Setting expectations that high would be silly. But even if we could alleviate the problem with building up an alliance with the AI and keeping it, that would be great. We know the AI doesn't have this problem among itself--it could be set to absolutely despise another civ or group of civs or worship them. This would of course *help* alliances stay in one piece as well as keeping regard static; also, AI civs joined by the aip, so to speak, will have the same enemies and so will always be fighting those same enemies--how well they fight together is another story. Asking your AI ally to attack your enemy will be redundant: if the aip you and the AI are in is set to hate another aip, then your ally will either be fighting that enemy or planning to.
I dunno, I think it can work. How well, uh, only testing can show that.

The only snags, I presume, will be if you attack your inherent ally--if you are, say, China, and your allies are the Mongols, Thai, and Russia. Everyone worships everyone in this aip. Okay, you decide to attack Russia--there's code that dictates that, having a Worship regard *and* an Alliance, it will let a few attacks go before it gets angry and fights back--but we know what Russia will do: Russia will, eventually, fight back. But what will Mongolia and Thailand do? Nothing? Fight Russia too? Or fight you? Any civ that attacks a civ in the aip is essentially attacking them all, so, I dunno.
And I have yet to prove that new aip inputs can be recognized by CtP. This is the first thing I have to see about--otherwise, none of it will work.

[Locutus]

Hi guys,

I've been off-line for a week or so (due to problems with my computer), so you haven't heard much from me (anyone miss me? ) but I'm still interested in that WWII scenario. I'll continue with it this weekend or so, I'm a bit busy with school right now. Just letting you guys know I'm still alive...

Locutus