Poll: Apolyton Pack Add-On

[John LeMaitre]

I haven't seen a poll for this subject yet, although I've received a ton of e-mail on the subject. Although by no means an active SLIC expert, I thought I'd start the poll so's I can offer my opinion first!

Apolyton Pack 1.0

---CD's Mod and CD Mod Graphics (including the updated versions)
---PowerSLICS (although modified to correct spelling and grammer)
---Harlan's Graphics Mod
---An Earth map - but not with assigned placement (for those of us with our own civs)
---True Terrains 3.0
---The 1.21 Hack

I then suggest that the new version be an advanced player's add-on consisting of:

---Medieval Mod
---Modern Mod
---Nordicus' Trade Goods, including TP's new values
---Maybe a few new governments
---Awesome AIPs

I would hate to see WesW's mods not included, as I have seen no one that dislikes the Medieval one at least.

Okay, what do the rest of you think?
[This message has been edited by John LeMaitre (edited February 01, 2000).]

[Morgoth]

John
Any idea how you get the world maps (24) to work in multiplayer mode. We were trying them out last night but it kept crashing after a few rounds.

I would really like to use WesW's mod with a world map but don't know how to set it up (for Multiplayer).

[Pintello]

Hi John,

Just for the record, if when you say TP's new Trade Goods values you are refering to me, TP and I, Timothy Pintello, are two different people. TP is the awesome creator of PowerSlics, and I am just somebody who stumbled onto a way to add production, food, and additional terrain gold, which is different from trade gold, to a particular trade good.

Timothy Pintello

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by John LeMaitre on 02-01-2000 01:06 AM Apolyton Pack 1.0 ..... ---True Terrains 3.0 ---The 1.21 Hack

i'm missing something here.....

[MarkG]

contents of the Apolyton Pack[*]Celestial Dawn's Mod v4.2[*]Unit Graphics for CD's Mod[*]Harlan's Graphics Mod v1.0[*]TP's PowerSlics 2.00[*]Colors00.txt[*]World Maps[*]Eastern Mediterranean Map


as for the 1.21 hack, I'm not sure about including as a standard, as not everyone feels comfortable with hacking the basic exe of the game...

[WesW]

John, don't feel bad, I had trouble separating TP and Tim when I first came here too.

I'll reiterate my recommendations for the thread here- AAips and a terrain mod.

I think the AAips are a big improvement overall to the game, and the default terrain values are ridiculous, imo.

Btw, I created a web site for myself yesterday. There's not really anything in it, yet. When I get the Modern mod beta-edition ready, I will post it there, so people can get it for themselves.

I also plan to put combined versions of my Med mods and the Pack there, so people can have one-step installations. Same with the Modern mod.

Eventually, I hope to have all the readmes posted as well, hopefully in their "Word" form.

Some of the emails I have been getting lately have really pointed out to me how difficult it is for computer novices to use my mods sometimes, so hopefully this site will allow me to simplify things.
It will make it easier to get things to Apolyton, as Mark knows from the Med mod Update.

(I don't want to hijack the thread, though, so please wait until I announce the site in its own thread for any questions. There's not much else to say right now, though. )

[skorpion59]

All,
I would like to address a couple of issues, maps and basic vs addon.

Maps:
To use the additional goods in pre-made maps, the goods will have to be put down when the map is created. (I haven't tried doing this yet with Nordicus' new goods so I am assuming it will work.) If the goods are put in the base pack, it will be okay. If the goods are put in an addon, you will not be able to use them with any pre-made maps. Also, in addition to the existing maps, I would like to add a European and USA. I can add others (English, Australian, etc) if anybody is interested. You will have to let me know what you want and the setup (ie., # Civs & use of start locs).

Morgoth,
What error, exactly, are you getting or what is happening & how far into the game?

Addon Packs:
Since you can already add each of the addon items one-by-one, I am assuming you are talking about creating an addon pack which already has all the mods in it and ready to go. (One install does them all.) Is this correct?

I guess I am the loner here. I think the new stuff should be part of the new pack. It doesn't make much since to have an Apolyton Pack 2.0 that doesn't have any new mods in it. If a person only wants to add new terrain, they can just add it to the AP v.1. If they just want the AAIP's, they can add it to the AP v.1. The object of the pack is to take the best of the best, put it all together, make it work and just have one install for all of it. Is it not? To me, Wes' stuff should be the backbone for the 2.0 version like CD's was to the 1.0 version.

Just expressing my 2 cents worth. I will go with what everybody deems the best way. I would suggest you call it the SuperCombo AP v1.0 addon (or something like that) since it will not be an AP v2 product.

UPDATE: Wes' last post, which was posted while I wrote this, points out my point exactly. New users can't get all the mods working together. They need a one-shot, one-install, do-it-all solution.
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited February 01, 2000).]

[WesW]

I agree that there is a lot to consider here when talking about a new mod combo.

I have gotten letters from people who downloaded and installed all three versions of the Aips, one after another, and wondered why the game crashed afterward. Or people don't fully understand the scenario setup, which I can sympathize with. And then, of course, the mod-maker can put out something with bugs it. I think all of us have done that at one time or another.

1)I look at it like the Pack should be a solid, beginners-level mod for users; beginners as far as understanding the file system in CtP. We need to keep the one-step, automatic install that it currently has.
2)It should include a copy of the original aidata folder, like the AAips do, in case people want to go back for some reason.
3)I think the individual mods should each pertain to different areas, so people won't be wondering which mod supercedes which. (I'm afraid a lot of people don't read the readmes like they should to start with.)
This would leave my Med mod out, but that may be alright, since I know some users prefer the original setup in some areas. If they are interested in something beyond the Pack, it will be hard for them to miss my stuff.

That's about all I can think of right now. There is so much going on with the game right now, it's hard to keep things straight. (Which is a nice problem. )

[John LeMaitre]

I may have worded myself poorly... I agree with what Skorpion59 says. A basic Apolyton Pack (but updated, with the new graphics and so on), and then an additional new Advanced Pack, with WesW's mods (I'm assuming ahead of time that the Mod Mod will be just as cool as the Med Mod!) and the Nordicus/Pintello Trade goods stuff.

It would really ease installation if the Advanced Pack contained all of this stuff. I myself, although probably no longer a novice, am certainly not a programming expert! As an example, I am finding it impossible at present to merge Nordicus' Goods to the Medieval Mod.

I think you guys are on the verge of creating your own CTP sequel!

[John LeMaitre]

Morgoth -- I have no idea. I'd ask Nordicus when he gets back, as he's the expert at the world map thing.

Pintello -- Sorry! What are the odds....

Mark G. -- I just listed what's in the Pack presently, as someone might think that something should be added or subtracted from it. Also, to remind ME what's in it. Is it possible to add the 1.21 Hack to the Pack?

Mostly, I added this thread to offer my opinion that WesW's mods be added to any proposed Pack 2.0, that it be an add-on, and not one giant Pack, and to see what others thought.

[WesW]

If you throw in the SLIC triggers that I intend to have in the Mod mod eventually, it will probably contain *more* stuff than many sequels.

I plan to have downloads available at my site which will be like the "Advanced Pack" you describe. Having my own site will allow me to add bits and pieces as I want, and perhaps I can set up a mailing list to notify people when I put out something new.
For example, if Morgoth comes out with the unarmored Cavalry unit I requested, I can slip it into both the Med mod and Mod mod for people. Then I can send things in to Apolyton when I have enough new stuff for a significant update.
The possibilities seem pretty exciting, assuming I have the time to do these things.

[pchang65]

In my opinion, we need an option that leaves out:
True Terrain
Nordicus' Trade Goods

Those 2 mods make it easier to grow and conduct research. This gives the humans more of an advantage against the AIs in single player mode (which kind of defeats the purpose of the Awesome AIPs mod).

Maybe we could call this the single player challenge pack. In addition, is we removed bombardment capability from cannons and ships of the line, this would make it much much more difficult to defeat the AI.

[skorpion59]

Sorry John, I guess I misunderstood. That comes from trying to go through these forums faster than I normally do. 2 Packs, a basic and an advanced. Good idea. I like that concept.

I must admit I have not messed much with Nordicus' new trade goods. For anybody that has, I have a question. If you put less goods on a map, does it still increase the ease in winning a game? I know Nordicus tends to put more goods in than I do. When I get a little more time I will check this out.

For the SLIC, I think the Guarrisons and their autoupgrade ability should be added. Possibly the Gorilla and/or 2 new wonders. Any thoughts on this from anybody?

------------------
Don, Apolyton Junkie

[pchang65]

The less goods on a map, the more you must rely on the size of your population for research. This does make it harder to beat the AI when the AI has a starting advantage (i.e. any level over Prince).

[Pintello]

Hi All,

PChang56 mentioned that Nordicus's Trade Goods Mod and Med Mod makes it easier to win games against the AI. My experience in this has been slightly different. Med Mod seems to work in conjunction with Awesome AIPs to make the game harder. However, when you install Nordicus's Trade Goods Mod, you install a different Terrain.txt file that is based on the one that came with CTP. That is why the game appears to get easier. You are basically undoing the things that worked together to produce a more difficult game.

You are effectively over-writing most of the Terrain changes that work together in Med Mod with the Awesome AIPs to make the game more difficult. Second, Nordicus's Trade Goods Mod overwrites the changes CD made in his Mod that reduced the gold available in the game. This results in higher amounts of gold to work with than the original Apolyton Pak has in it.

That is why the Poll that WesW is running about what the values of trade goods should be is so important. It will result in reducing the effects of adding more gold, while at the same time giving some additional food and production for the AI and the humans to work with. This will enable not just you, but the AI to grow better. Additional production should also make the AI more difficult to fight because production has always been one of its weaknesses.

AIPs helped this in some regard, and I think adding a little extra production in the form of Terrain Resources will help even more. I have added Production to the Trade Goods in some games I have been experimenting with and the result has been that the AI seems to be building more military units and thus using them. Also, since I have added the Production to bonus to certain trade goods, the AI has been more willing to start wars with me and even has launched its initial attacks with stacks of 7 to 9 units. This in my experience is quite different from its previous behavior. I think this is a result of the AI having more production to work with. The added Production bonuses to trade goods is what is doing this. With that in mind, we may want to consider putting more production bonuses and possibly food bonuses on trade goods while not doing much with gold bonuses. Though, I don't think gold bonuses on trade goods translate into trade bonuses. I have not looked into this extensively yet, I haven't had the time, but it seems that the trade gold a good gets is related to the gold value in the Goods.txt and has nothing to do with the underlying gold value of the given terrain.

Well, I have gotten a bit off topic here, sorry, but what is done is done.

Timothy Pintello
[This message has been edited by Pintello (edited February 03, 2000).]