Announcement

**John LeMaitre** · January 29, 2000, 01:22

This'd be cool to add to an "Apolyton Pack 2.0", don't ya think? Here're my suggestions:

.............Food.......Prod.......Gold

"Diamonds"...............+05........+15
"Rubies"............................+10
"Oil"....................+15........+05
"Beaver"............................+05
"Tobacco"...........................+05
"Poppies"...........................+05
"Coffee"............................+05
"Grapes"......+05...................+05
"Sugar".......+05...................+05
"Jade"..............................+10
"Elephant"...............+05........+10
"Alligator".........................+05
"Caribou".....+05........+05...........
"Crab"........+05......................
"Pearls"............................+05
"Whale".......+05...................+05
"Giant Squid".+05......................

Nordicus' new goods:

1. Buffalo...+10.......................
2. Wheat.....+15.......................
3. Cotton................+10........+05
4. Apples....+05.......................
5. Spice............................+15
6. Bananas...+05.......................
7. Copper................+10........+05
8. Bauxite...............+10...........
9. Sapphires........................+10
10. Emeralds........................+10
11. Coal.................+15...........
12. Gold.................+05........+15
13. Iron Ore.............+15...........
14. Silver..........................+10
15. Seal.....+05....................+05
16. Olives...+10....................+05
17. Fish.....+15.......................
18. Salmon...+10.......................
19. Lobster..+05....................+05
20. Camel................+05...........
21. Tea.............................+05
22. Uranium..............+10........+05
23. Walrus...+05.......................
24. Peppers..+05.......................
25. Potatoes.+15.......................
26. Tomatoes.+05.......................
27. Strawberries.<+05..................
28. Peat.....+05.........+05...........
29. Lemons...+05.......................
30. Silk............................+10
31. Dates....+05.......................
32. Tuna.....+05....................+05
33. Rice.....+15.......................
34. Cocoa...........................+05

Would this stuff change the maximum size of a city? My cities seem to stop at (if I remember correctly) 232.

[This message has been edited by John LeMaitre (edited January 29, 2000).]

**pchang65** · January 29, 2000, 15:36

Theoretically, with the beef vat, your cities never have to stop growing. Perhaps 232 is some hard limit in the CTP source code. Anyway, I can never get cities beyond 40 in anything other than the lowest difficulty level.

**Pintello** · January 31, 2000, 10:06

Hi All,

I like some of the changes John has suggested. I would however propose higher production bonuses for things like coal, oil, bauxite, and iron.

I think if we look at these things as resouces instead of goods, we may get a better idea of how to use them. Also, something that Wes did not meantion is that things like iron, coal, bauxite, and uranium have very low occurance values in the game. Added on top of this that there are three types of mountains and three types of hills and that each of these types have different resouces and you see that some of these items appear very rarely indeed. Because of all these considerations, I would consider giving iron something in the neighborhood of 35 to 45 production value, bauxite a similar range, and uranium and coal something like 45-55 production values as these resources also serve as engergy sources too. I would not give oil a similarly high production value because it seems to appear a lot because of the large number of terrain types it appears in.

I have been doing some testing with this, and believe it or not, the AI actually appears to know what to do with these resources. It puts mines on production resources and it puts nets or farms on food resources.

Timothy Pintello

**John LeMaitre** · January 31, 2000, 14:02

I wanted to give higher production values, but was scared of what might happen to game balance. (I haven't tried it, myself, yet.) I just set myself a largely arbitrary limit of 20 total points of gold, production, and/or food. I'd probably also increase the gold value of gold and diamond, as well as the food value of wheat, rice, and perhaps potatoes.

I was wondering if there were some way to have the values change as the game went on...? I mean, uranium is valueless until Physics anyway, and then very valuable thereafter. Spices drop in value with the onset of refridgeration, and oil is nothing until the internal combustion engine. Just a thought.

This, in combination with Nordicus' Goods and WesW's Medieval Mod, would be excellent additions to the proposed Apolyton Pack 2.0. Would it be an add-on to the old, or would it be combined to the earlier version?

Also, it might be neat to see if any of the original mod-makers from version 1.0 would like to improve on their earlier work, or would mind if someone would work on it for them. Imagine 10 different city types in Harlan's mod!

**Pintello** · January 31, 2000, 17:13

Hi John,

I am wondering if it is possible to use slic to change Terrain.txt files at certain points in the game. If it is, that may be one way for you to set things up so that as different discoveries are made, different Terrain Resouce values are used. I do know that if you change the Terrain.txt file in the middle of a game it will still work, but with the new values. That was how I tested the thing to make sure everything was working like I intended it to.

The only problem I see with this approach is that the AI may not know what to do if Terrain Resouce values change in the middle of the game. While it would definitely place a city near a resource with a very high production value, I saw it do this lots of times while testing, it would not know to place a city near a Terrain Resource that has a very low value now, but will have a very high value later in the game. I just haven't observed the AI making such long range decision. Is this something that can be changed in the AIP or FLI files Wes or Nordicus?

Timothy Pintello

**skorpion59** · January 31, 2000, 18:45

All,

You can't use SLIC to manipulate the game text files. There is code specifically relating to userprofile.txt but you can only import the values. If you try to add any new fields or change any field, the game deletes the entire file and creates a new file with all the default values. Not sure how or why it does this but that is what happens. Maybe further testing would shed more light on this. Once I found it created new default files, I stopped testing.

------------------
Don, Apolyton Junkie

**WesW** · February 1, 2000, 00:11

I agree with John's approach of giving each resource about 20 pts., distributed among the 3 areas.
If you give something a large value, this will skew the game in the early going, which would then snowball as the game went along.

In civ-like games, early decisions and discoveries give increasing advantages akin to interest as the game wears on. This is why initial city placement is so crucial.
I think we all know how huge an advantage rivers are if you have one in your capital, and they only add 5 gold and either 5 food or 5 production in the True Terrain mod. Likewise with early slaves.

Resources will act like rivers and goods. It may well be that anything more than 10 or 15 total production will be all that can be added without making the game a crapshoot dependent only upon your luck with the starting location.

Regarding Tim's question about AI city placement; From what can tell, the AI puts a very high priority on any and every good, so I don't foresee the AI bypassing any goods, no matter their initial value.

**Nordicus** · February 5, 2000, 10:01

Hey, guys--I like what I've seen so far (but, John, cocoa is a CTP default good).
There are 50 total resources--17 default, 33 added by me.

After normalizing terrain food and production values to account for the new resource abilities, as well as reducing gold values for trade goods, this is what I've included in the 1.3 version--please note that some goods are rarer than others (i.e. lobster and salmon--shallow water appears much more infrequently than beach or deep water); plus, there is seemingly a certain total amount of "chance" where goods are concerned, and increasing the total amount of goods will have the effect of some goods not showing up on the map at all--in other words, having each terrain's pair of goods with 0.5 chance of appearing in that terrain will leave out quite a few altogether, in my testing; so, I had to lower percentages everywhere, and as a result, some goods are very rare--> for instance, sapphires, on a regular 70 X 140 map, will seldom appear at all, and rubies are now very rare as well in this respect--> so my figures take this into consideration. Also, I insist upon having resources which are expensive and sought after in the real world the same in the CTP world, but this can be open for debate, of course:

Gold Food Production

1. "Diamonds".... 20 (--given the expense involved with precious gems, I doubt they'd have very much of a production value, IMHO...)
2. "Rubies"...... 15
3. "Oil"......... 10 15
4. "Beaver"...... 5 5
5. "Tobacco"..... 5
6. "Poppies"..... 5
7. "Coffee"...... 5
8. "Grapes"...... 5
9. "Sugar"....... 5 5
10. "Jade"....... 5 10
11. "Elephant"... 10 5
12. "Alligator".. 5 5
13. "Caribou".... 10 5
14. "Crab"....... 10
15. "Pearls"..... 5 5 (come from oysters, which is a food source)
16. "Whale"....... 10 5
17. "Giant Squid". 10 5

(18--space dummy good)
(19--dummy good)
Nordicus' new goods:

20. Buffalo...... 15 5
21. Wheat........ 15
22. Cotton....... 10
23. Apples....... 10
24. Spice........ 5 5
25. Bananas...... 10
26. Copper....... 15
27. Bauxite...... 15
28. Sapphires.... 15
29. Emeralds..... 15
30. Coal......... 20
31. Gold......... 10 5
32. Iron Ore..... 20
33. Silver....... 5 10
34. Seal......... 10 5
35. Olives....... 5
36. Fish......... 10
37. Salmon....... 15
38. Lobster...... 10
39. Camel........ 10
40. Tea.......... 5
41. Uranium...... 15
42. Walrus....... 5 10
43. Peppers...... 5
44. Potatoes..... 15
45. Tomatoes..... 10
46. Strawberries. 5
47. Peat......... 15
48. Lemons....... 10
49. Silk......... 10 5
50. Dates........ 10
51. Tuna......... 15
52. Rice......... 15

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited February 05, 2000).]

**Nordicus** · February 5, 2000, 10:15

Yeah, since the trade value is moderately high for many of these goods, not much gold value needs to be added to the resources.

Wes:
Volcano's GOOD2 is Crabs, as I said before, since many forms of life can thrive in the warm water there, and several species of crab have been documented living at these dark, volcanic depths where life would otherwise be quite scarse.

Yes, Timothy, you're quite right about the infrequency of some of these resources--15 is a good general production value I've found (esp. since the terrain on which it's located is not usually overfilled with mineral deposits), but for, say, Iron Ore, 15 should do if desert mountains's production is 15, making that total 30 with the resource in it.

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