Trick or Cheat

[DaShi]

Originally posted by blackice
It came to my attention that some still might not be aware of this... So here is the original post of the bug for your viewing (dis)pleasure.




Trick or Cheat?

I have debated writing about this since I found out about it from the internet players about a month ago.

There is a bug in CTP, that some of you may already know about, that gives someone "in the know" a substantial advantage in Call to Power. It is the "Rush-Buy/Remove From Queue Trick" that lets you rush buy units for one-third their cost.

For example (at Deity level), you can buy a Settler (normal rush buy cost = 3240) for the price of a Granary (rush buy cost = 1080). And you can buy a Tank (normal rush buy cost 12000) for the price of a Factory (rush buy cost = 4000). As well as many, many other examples.

Here's how you do it: (Using the Settler for Granary example)

1. From your Build Queue, add a Granary.
2. Add a Settler below the Granary in your Build Queue.
3. Go to your Build screen and "Rush Ruy" the Granary. (Notice the drop of 1080 gold from your gold reserve.)
4. Go back to your Build Queue and REMOVE THE GRANARY FROM THE QUEUE.
5. Hit End.
6. Notice that you have built a Settler for 1080 gold. Normally this Settler would have cost you 3240 if you were to rush buy it normally.

(You can use this "trick" over and over without limit.)

Personally, I have not used this trick (or cheat) in any games I am playing. No really, I haven't! (My rating reflects that I'm not lying .) It is easily done, though. Many of the internet players feel that this is "part of the game" and is not cheating. My opinion is that it is cheating if you don't let everyone in the game know how to take advantage of this obvious bug. And what a pain in the neck to implement. Everytime you build anything you have to run through the above mess in order to maximize your rush buy capability.

I would recommend labelling this as a "cheat" in PBEM, and ask all players not to use it. (It is so easy to cheat in other ways in PBEM, this shouldn't be that different to include this in the list of "don'ts" in PBEM.)

Awaiting all your opinions and comments. I only thought it fair to all the players here to mention this "trick" because some players may be already using it in some of your games. It would be good to get a concensus from the players on how to "treat" this -- Trick or Cheat!


Quinn


The thread


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=6233

[Venom]

I agree with DaShi.

[Solver]

Asking for another ban, guys?

[kstolzy]

I realize that I am a "Johnny come lately" in this discussion and I apologize if I open any old wounds, but I was so inspired and stimulated by the discussion in the thread that Quinn started that I would like to try and make a useful contribution, if that's possible. I don't know where else to put this, the original thread being in the archive.

When I first read references to this trick/cheat in other threads, it was neither clear enough nor seemed significant enough to pursue. But after reading Quinn intro post, and the implications it had, I investigated for myself. What is clear to me now is that there is a Rush-Buy cost, per production unit, ratio that varies depending on whether it is an improvement, a unit or a wonder being built. Not only that, these ratios vary depending on the current government.
For example: cost in gold /(per) production unit generated (in Rush/Buy) in Tyranny(I presume): improvements: 2/1 units: 6/1
(hence the Settler costs three times as much to Rush-Buy as the Granary, but they both require the same amount of production - 540).
When this production is generated, it can be directly, and without loss, via the Build Cue, applied to another improvement/unit or wonder. (Quinn provided very clear instructions).
In my current Facist government, the ratios are: improvement: 4/1 unit: 8/1 wonder: 12/1. In this case, you only get double the value of your gold spent when switching from improvement to unit(to continue the example, I would get a 4320 Settler for 2160). J Bytheway has introduced a little more complexity by sharing that if the Rush-Buy/Remove is done is done sequentially , your Rush-Buy gold can be stretched even further. I verified this, but was unable to match the magnitude of his results. I suspect that some kind of rounding "fudge factor" would account for his observation. Have you ever noticed that even when an improvement/unit/wonder is due to finish in one turn, there is still a positive (not zero) Rush-Buy cost?(Smells like fudge, could be tempting )

Basically these are methods of stretching your Rush-Buy dollars. No doubt mods with significant (10,000 ) starting gold could be an awful temptation (I acknowledge that the "cheats" more than triple the value). In a normal 0 gold start, I don't think these "cheats" would provide an overwhelming advantage. I don't think you can accumulate enough gold, fast enough, especially if you are investing in science, paying above average wages as well as covering maintenance costs of your improvements, for this to outweigh good strategy. I don't think Rush-Buying is that big a part of the game. But it's just my opinion, I'm not speaking from experience.

As far as trying to "fix" this problem goes, I imagine that would require a patch that restricts changing Rush-Buy production from improvements to units & wonders. I don't hold out much hope for that, I've read too many times that there will be no further developement on Ctp1. I don't know how changing the current files works or how the SLIC stuff I've read about works, but it seems like this mainly invovles altering game parameters, and I suspect there is no quick fix for this on that path. This is all speculation on my part. I'm afraid that beyond a few batch files, the only programming I ever did was in a PL1 class a million years ago(in the age of dinosaurs, before PCs, maybe before you were born ). Basically, I am saying we probably need to find a human solution.

So, is this a "trick" or a "cheat". I assume "trick" would mean that this is an "undocumented" tactic that the original developers intended. I considered that a possibility because of another post:

Originally posted by Locutus
Rush build costs are very low when you're in Anarchy, so it's officially not a bug but a feature But I must say 20k still seems extremely cheap, though a Nanite Factory might indeed explain this.

However, in Anarchy rush build costs should IMHO be extremely high, not low (as it is, you could switch to Anarchy for a few turns every now and then to buy stuff real cheap), so even if it's officially not a bug, it's certainly in need of fixing.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104616&highlight=anarchy

I can imagine the developers intentionally reduced Rush-Buy costs in Anarchy to compensate for the hit that production takes in that government(many cities, big loss). But the question of whether it is a bug appears open. But I couldn't think of any reason for defeating the difference in gold/production Rush-Buy ratios between improvements, units and wonders, with an undocumented "feature". The way they are promotes civ building as opposed to military build up and severly restricts wonder Rush-Buying.

In the wide woolly world of PBEM and MP, if someone discovers an "undocumeted" tactic, bug or no, through experimentation or by just paying close attention, it's hard for me to get mad at them for using it to their advantage. When I discovered in MOO that having two stargates enabled me to send a ship, or and entire fleet anywhere in the galaxy in one turn, I couldn't resist using it in every subsequent game against the computer. This feature/bug/cheat enabled me to maintain one massive single defensive/attack fleet that could act or respond anywhere in one turn. In the world of commerce, trade secrets are protected by law. In the world of diplomacy by other means, we do not expect countries who are at war to exchange military technology so they can fight on an equal technological level. So I can understand berXpert's original position. Some people might like to play with the "cheats" allowed option. I support them in finding likeminded players. I'm open to trying it that way myself. I must admit that I will probably use the trick in SP games. I just hate losing to a machine!!

But I think the argument blackice made is irrefutable. Nothing like killing all fun, blackice, by bringing out "the facts". It sounds like the purpose of the Game League is to provide the "level playing field" that Quinn talked about. The rules that members are presumed to have agreed to upon joining are necessary to preserve that "level playing field" and certainly not to provide a "hunting ground" for unscrupulous players. (BTW, blackice, when I tried your link to the Game League, http://gameleague.megaultra.com/feat.../conduct.php3, there was nothing there. Has it dissolved?) Would it not be the duty of any member to ask about any "trick" with which they had any doubts? Wouldn't any new "undocumented" tactic be subject to the consensus of the group? Maintenance of the "level playing field" would belong to all. Some people have trouble assuming responsibilty for the "whole". They're more comfortable with being an "outsider". I suggest that you might find some comfort in the thought that you may have provided some grist for the spiritual mill we are all evolving in. But before I launch into outer space. I myself prefer a stand up fight. I don't want to be wondering if someone is using a corked bat or throwing spitballs at me. While I am still too intimidated by the depth of experience and the stories of massively powerful civilizations to seek out a match with a human opponent , I look forward to matching wits and wisdom with a human, not artificial, intelligence and would not direspect myself or my opponent by breaking the ground rules. I wouldn't mind getting my butt kicked nearly so much knowing that I was met on a "level playing field". Thanks Quinn, for making that possible.

If you've read this far, I am honored. If you have any opinions, good or bad, I would be interested. If you just want to move on, I understand, me too....

[quinns]

Well... I'm glad your were inspired by that! Good post. To those who think it "clever" to cheat and win... A cheat is not a strategy -- a cheat is just a cheat. Once someone finds you out, you will become ostracized and booted out. Don't cheat... in ANYTHING... for your own good.

[blackice]

kstolzy
Great post, we saw the old GL die a horrid death from cheats. What we would like to see is PBEM and MP in Apolyton avoid this fate. Hence the long hours put into posts disclosing cheats, tricks, bugs and the like.

An even playing field is the only way to go, learning curve goes up and enjoyment in the game win or lose goes up.

We encourage all players to disclose all game oddities that may or may not add an advantage to one's position in the game. That way with all aware we can then come to agreements as to how we would like to play a game with cheats or without. Either way it's on a level playing field.

The game league is dead or mutated either way sorry the link does not work anymore.

BTW the rushbuy/switch is also used to rush out troops and such.

One of the big stingers we found out after this bug was a token disclosure of cheats was the infrastructure bug. Combining these two cheats was quite potent but alas for those cheats that used these to become top dogs, heh the only thing they gained was the distain of all honest players and a very limited player list of opponents.

Pretty much thier time is done the fake bravato and the wasted claims of hero are all but gone and never to be reclaimed. They are not world class nor are they recognized as the best in the world. No they are recognized as those that killed a game league that was huge and those that can not play a game without cheating. Some recognition eh!

Cheating to win does not make one a hero it simply makes one a cheat.

This is a good spot of that thread as a learning tool for those who come here to play an honest game.

Thanks again Quinn, I have to wonder why it was disclosed to you though? Was it because they wanted to come clean on some things to be hopefully accepted in the community or was it because of the two common cheats the top dogs had this was of the least value. possibly a combination of both?

[kstolzy]

I truly hope that the drive to win at any cost (like personal honor and the respect of others) doesn't leave our planet "dead or mutated."

Thank you for the acknowledgement. It makes the time & effort worthwhile.