Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3

[Mathemagician]

Hi there.

Since this is my first Super League participation, im not exactly sure when this season will come to an end. But i believe it is a good time to think about changes for next season.

A few suggestions of mine:

Scoring - Early victory bonus

Okay, it's a little early to criticize our scoring system as only the final ranking table will ultimately show how good it was. However, I think the bonus score for early victories has rather had the effect of articially prolonging some games that would otherwise have been early concessions. In my 1x1 game with Checkmate (Spies), Checkmate continued to play when i got ahead in power graph and conceded right at turn 150/151. In my 1x1 game with TheBirdMan (Ancients) it was a little different as I actually won by 4xPG rule, but I have the feeling he might have conceded earlier as well without the rule.
As a substitute I suggest to either axe the bonus score rule altogether or to only give a bonus score equal to the *9 points that would be gained if the leading player stayed in the lead until turn X (turn 150 for example).
With the latter rule, conceding early has exactly the same scoring effect as dragging a lost game out until turn 150. (This assumes the loser will have the lower power graph all the time.) So the lost game can be conceded right away.
With the former variant, conceding early even denies points to the winner. Since he will still gain the game points for the game (1 point for a 1x1 game), this isn't too bad either. The bonus score only influenced the tie-breaker score anyway.

[Mathemagician]

Scoring - .5 scores

As a way to prevent these rather disturbing half numbers (my opinion) one way would be to prevent ties in *9 turn scoring. For example in the case of a tie, a tie-breaker could be used. These could be:
- The player who was higher at the most recent non-tie *9 turn is considered higher.
- The player with the higher seed number (oranger over blue e.g.) is considered higher, as the later seeds tend to have worse starting positions, thus tendentially making the high ranking more valuable.

Victory condition - 4xPG

I'm not exactly sure which 4xPG rule we are using currently, but I suggest that it only count from turns 80-100 onward and has to be held for at least 1 turn.
In the early game it is too easy to play specifically for the power graph advantage. A game could be snuck out this way by number-crunching instead of playing for the stronger civ.

[Grandpa Troll]

i just wanna play

Ill play teams but prefer single games

I have ice cold land why we have to have them settings I cant figure out

BUT..count me in assign me a game (MULTIPLE GAMES) and off we go

Gramps

[FlameFlash]

I like and agree with all those ideas, Math. Though with screenshots and zooming in ability, have there really still been some ties?

Another method might be to do something like they do in golf skins games. If there's a tie, the points are just left on reserve. The next *9 turn that doesn't have a tie the winner gets all the previous points that had been in limbo previously.

[Mathemagician]

Originally posted by FlameFlash
I like and agree with all those ideas, Math. Though with screenshots and zooming in ability, have there really still been some ties?

I think so. There were a couple of .5 points occasionally.

Originally posted by FlameFlash
Another method might be to do something like they do in golf skins games. If there's a tie, the points are just left on reserve. The next *9 turn that doesn't have a tie the winner gets all the previous points that had been in limbo previously.

That sounds like a reasonable idea too. However, it requires additional management by the moderator (Checkmate),as he must remember these ties until a long time after they actually appear.

[FlameFlash]

Not really.

If we did a better job of reporting our *9 turns by maybe posting a running tally of each game we'd be able to improve the speed at which points were tallied.

ie.

FlameFlash v. Math

Math & FF T9 TIE
Math T19 POINTx2
FF T29 POINT
Math & FF T39 TIE
FF T49 POINTx2
Math T59 POINT

[Mathemagician]

I see.
Also, if we collect all *9 turn saves until the game ends, we'd be able to post all these at once.

[Grandpa Troll]

or better yet start the game already

ok

i'll be quiet

[Mathemagician]

dear Troll, we are talking about SL season #3 here. it will only start when season #2 is over. or at best a bit before that.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Mathemagician
dear Troll, we are talking about SL season #3 here. it will only start when season #2 is over. or at best a bit before that.

Dear Math

Hope the season ended with you in the weiner seat?

L V (canal ) Troll

P S

what exactly are the seasonal dates for a SL?

Gramps

[checkMate]

Re: Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3

Originally posted by Mathemagician
Hi there.

Since this is my first Super League participation, im not exactly sure when this season will come to an end. But i believe it is a good time to think about changes for next season.

A few suggestions of mine:

Scoring - Early victory bonus

Okay, it's a little early to criticize our scoring system as only the final ranking table will ultimately show how good it was. However, I think the bonus score for early victories has rather had the effect of articially prolonging some games that would otherwise have been early concessions. In my 1x1 game with Checkmate (Spies), Checkmate continued to play when i got ahead in power graph and conceded right at turn 150/151. In my 1x1 game with TheBirdMan (Ancients) it was a little different as I actually won by 4xPG rule, but I have the feeling he might have conceded earlier as well without the rule.
As a substitute I suggest to either axe the bonus score rule altogether or to only give a bonus score equal to the *9 points that would be gained if the leading player stayed in the lead until turn X (turn 150 for example).
With the latter rule, conceding early has exactly the same scoring effect as dragging a lost game out until turn 150. (This assumes the loser will have the lower power graph all the time.) So the lost game can be conceded right away.
With the former variant, conceding early even denies points to the winner. Since he will still gain the game points for the game (1 point for a 1x1 game), this isn't too bad either. The bonus score only influenced the tie-breaker score anyway.

Why not have the bonus? It doesn't really prolong the game beyond the longest game. It only prolongs some games that would have been short. I definitly think there should be a reward for winning fast. The latter proposal is better than the former above, but I'm not sure either is necessary. Where we need some thought is on how to get the 2x2's finished sooner, (hopefully without resorting to speed-up mods)

[checkMate]

Originally posted by Mathemagician
Scoring - .5 scores

As a way to prevent these rather disturbing half numbers (my opinion) one way would be to prevent ties in *9 turn scoring. For example in the case of a tie, a tie-breaker could be used. These could be:
- The player who was higher at the most recent non-tie *9 turn is considered higher.
- The player with the higher seed number (oranger over blue e.g.) is considered higher, as the later seeds tend to have worse starting positions, thus tendentially making the high ranking more valuable.

Victory condition - 4xPG

I'm not exactly sure which 4xPG rule we are using currently, but I suggest that it only count from turns 80-100 onward and has to be held for at least 1 turn.
In the early game it is too easy to play specifically for the power graph advantage. A game could be snuck out this way by number-crunching instead of playing for the stronger civ.

[a] - How about the team that was behind previously gets the nod since they are making a comeback?

[b] - Banana, actually I don't think there is anything wrong with some number crunching. (you of all people should agreee )

[checkMate]

I would like to hear some ideas about moderating the 2x2 games so that they don't stall.

Perhaps each team will have one player who is also a moderator. The moderator will moderate one random 2x2 game. Moderators are encouraged to "next" the crap out everybody who is slacking? I would propose a 48-hour rule for this.

Perhaps the random moderation assighment could change periodically so that no moderator can pick on any team for too long.

[Grandpa Troll]

or..

agree that if a game becomes stalled and no contact then the teammate plays the turn

"IF" both teamates fail to show in a predetermined time frame then the games gets forfeited

then if the missing players show backup simply start a new game

I am just utterly amazed how anyone can stand a game going on for 50 turns in a year..

jusy my $0.02 worth

Gramps

[Mathemagician]

Re: Re: Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3

Originally posted by checkMate
Why not have the bonus? It doesn't really prolong the game beyond the longest game. It only prolongs some games that would have been short. I definitly think there should be a reward for winning fast. The latter proposal is better than the former above, but I'm not sure either is necessary.

well, it may not be necessary. but if the latter rule (bonus points equal to the missed *9 turns until turn 150) encourages finishing games (by concecssion) while not actually making anything worse, i think its a good idea.

Originally posted by checkMate
Where we need some thought is on how to get the 2x2's finished sooner, (hopefully without resorting to speed-up mods)

thats a point too. just i dont have any good idea about it.

---

Originally posted by checkMate
[a] - How about the team that was behind previously gets the nod since they are making a comeback?

thats an option too. i guess we will have some polls again once season 3 closes in. so far, let me hear all suggestions you may have.

Originally posted by checkMate
[b] - Banana, actually I don't think there is anything wrong with some number crunching. (you of all people should agreee )

i meant that it would be possibly by winning a game simply by finding an early unit with a high number of power points (such as a knight for example) and/or letting a few cities grow as larger cities count more in PG than a couple of 1-cities.
i remember 1 or 2 games where i was occasionally 4xPG aheaf before i even met my opponent, somewhere around turns 30-60 or so i think.

Originally posted by checkMate
I would like to hear some ideas about moderating the 2x2 games so that they don't stall.

Moderators are encouraged to "next" the crap out everybody who is slacking? I would propose a 48-hour rule for this.

i dont like the idea of being nexted after 48 hours in a competitively quite relevant game like SL 2x2 games.
i think the real problems are those games that stall for more than a week. so i would suggest combining Checkmate's moderator idea with Troll's thought of "teammate-takes-over". maybe something like this:

24 h - moderator resends
48 h - moderator resends, asking teammate to play the turn, it will be accepted if either player plays the turn
72 h (24 h for teammate) - moderator resends again, this is the regular 'first' resend for player 2
96 h - turn is nexted

plus, maybe some other rule to determine when the game is forfeited and whether it can be picked up later again.
e.g. 2 nextings in a row = forfeit, but if picked up within 2 weeks game could be restored. second forfeit is final.

just some ideas. usually the opinions about the "correct" enforcement level vary quite much.