Where have all the scenario makers gone?????

[gemini]

Hi guys, well I wanted to comment about the article on the front page concerning scenarios for ctp.

I to have often wondered why are there so many scenarios for civ2 but none or hardly any for ctp. I know there is an interest out there for scenarios and there have been people asking for help making a scenarios but wow not really anything out there.

There are quite a few very good things about ctp for scenario creation.

You can have alot more units than you can have in civ2.

You can have more control with the tweaking of aip and fli files.

You can have bigger maps for your scenarios than civ2.

You have a better scripting ability to work with than civ2.

There are alot of new unit type's in ctp and special unit abilities than civ2.

Infact at first glance I thought ctp was a dream come true.

Now for the drawbacks.


Yes you can have alot more units than civ2 but they are harder to make. You have to use the sprite editor to make new units which is alot more difficult than just making a one facing unit for civ2. In fact I had alot of trouble at first with the sprite editor but I got alot of help from these forums.

Yes the aip and fli files offer more control over a scenario than civ2 but there is a steep learning curve to manipulating these files and most people probably get very frustrated trying to understand how everything works.

Yes bigger maps but no flat map support. This is a big drawback. Also making a map for ctp seems like a real chore compared to civ2.

I had this idea a while ago, why not make a scenario developers package. It would include a html faq, stuff as simple as how to add more units to editing the aip and fli files. It would also include progams such as easymod and I believe paul made a program so the game reads the all files including ai data from a seperate directory so you don't have to copy over original files. We could also include finished slic scripts and all kinds of stuff. I was even thinking of including threads off of apolyton that I use as a reference from time to time.

What do you guys think. I really would also like to know if there is a demand for this too. I mean how many guys are making a scenario right now, how many guys have quit making a scenario for this reason or that reason and let us know why you quit so maybe we can address this problem in the developers package.

Guys right now as most of you know I am working on a ww2 scenario and I am getting closer and closer to finishing so I wasn't planning to make this developers package till after I am done my scenario but if anyone wants to go ahead and start this and get a developers package out there go for it. I would even help once my scenario is done. But right now that is my priority.

From my own personal experience ctp is really complicated for scenario creation, but I would have to say that the units definetely took a long time to make and I think this is a reason why there are not many scenarios out there, also the flat map support.

Well concerning the flat map support I was thinking maybe as a workaround someone could just border the map with some sort of mountain terain and make it inaccessible for units to cross.

Anyway, I remember reading a thread that Locutus started. He was interested in making an ancient scenario I think it was based on ancient rome. Wow, that is my favourite subject next to ww2. But he also was asking if anyone could help with units. I think that is a really big reason why scenarios don't get done cos there isn't alot out there for units and alot of the newbies find it hard to make the units and not everyone has 3d modeling software to make the units. But an idea to be included in a developers package is to just include a sprite script for a one facing unit. I think alot of people want graphics equal to ctp's units but let's face it we are never going to get alot of ctp quality units for scenarios and we'll have to settle for one facing units, although it's a turnoff for most people I think if we had alot of one facing units out there readily accessable we are going to see alot more scenarios. And they would be easy to make, just have to find the pictures.

I really have to say that we are very lucky to have a guy like morgoth around who makes really good looking units, very professional job.

For an example, my scenario has alot of units but most are not animated, but I really don't mind, I personally would rather see a scenario made than not made due to lack of graphics.

Infact I already do have a script for one facing units, if anyone is interested give me an e-mail at darrylm@cable-lynx.net. And I will also have enough time to help if any questions.


I really have to hand it to apolyton and all the people on the forums, anytime I needed help there was someone there to answer my questions. It's been amazing.

One thing that really ticks me off though is activision. I mean hey it's great that they are giving us the api for the ai dll but ummm why didn't they give it to us last year. Duhhhh. Why make it available and not advertise that it is available. Doesn't make sense.

I also think that alot of people are getting this mentality that ctp2 is coming out so why make a scenario for ctp. I know it is rather discouraging but who really knows when ctp2 will be out and if it is released when the patch will be available.

From my own experience it does take alot of time to make a scenario. I have been working on mine since last august, 3 to 4 hours a days determinedly, don't even know what a t.v. looks like anymore. But also one of the reasons why it has taken so long is because there is so much more I can do with ctp than civ2 but there have also been many hold ups and workarounds and I have had to scratch some of my original ideas, but I think in the end it will be a really good scenario...

First I make the scenario for myself, than if I enjoy it I'm sure other people are going to too.

I encourage people to work in teams to speed up the process of creation. Believe me, since I have done this scenario all by myself I relize how much work it is for ctp scenario's.

I would rather work by myself though with my own ideas but I also relize that if people work in teams it would speed up the process alot. But enough babling, I encourage people to get together and start something, be proactive!!!!! Work in a team to speed things up and work past problems!!!! Work alone too, let's just get some more scenario's out there guys.

I'm gonna start a thread seperate from this as well for people who wanna get a scenario started with the same ideas.

Btw, hopefully my ww2 scenario will be out there by the end of may.



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Gemini

[Locutus]

Yes, I was a bit surprised by that article on the front-page. Sure, there are no scenarios yet but we all know about the problems. And just as the problems start to get resolved and more scenarios are in the making, (my ancient scenario, your WWII scenario, Doxmatix's fantasy scenario and who know what else) you get an article that.

Let me briefly address your drawbacks of CtP-scenario making and how these problems are being/have been solved.

The units: this is still a problem but by using existing sprites and making one or five facing sprites (without animations) a lot of time can be saved in this area. A lot of WWII era units are already available thanks to Harlan and more and more units for the Ancient and Medieval age are coming available thanks to Morgoth and Wes's Med Mods. Also I just today found out how easy it is to convert Age of Empire units to CtP format (even with animation) so if all those are converted there should be plenty of units for those eras.

The aip and fli files: these are at the moment the biggest problem for scenario makers IMHO. Only now, with Peter Triggs's fuzzy logic paper and the email-group that came forth from that, we start to really understand those. It may be best for scenario makers to leave those files for what they are as much as possible (only adjust buid-queue files etc.) and use the standard personality types. Once we get more scenarios and the knowlegde grows larger one could try and make scenario specific versions for those.

Maps: Don and I have found an workaround to get flat-map support working after all (using units, not mountains BTW) and this is almost ready for the public, so that problem has been resolved. Also, Don's website will soon contain so many maps there will be something of every scenario-maker's liking and Don is even prepared to make custom map(-packs) for people who request it, so maps should no longer be a problem.

A problem you didn't mention is that SLIC-code can be very valuable in scenario-making and many people find this tough material as well. Well, I don't know about other people, but I for one would gladly help anyone who needs help with SLIC-code, whether it is just advice or writing all needed code on demand (as I do for Wes's Med Mod already). Also, Don was working on elaborate documentation in plain English for people who don't have a lot of programming experience already.

Funny, I was thinking the same as you are, I wanted to make sort of a scenario developers guide or package as well after I finished a scenario myself. The main part of this IMHO should be a large FAQ dealing with every aspect of making a scenario, from adding units to making new AI personalities.

You're absolutely right about Activision. They may have made a great game but the support should have been better, offering only advice isn't enough, good utilities and documentation and the like are needed. The api for the AI is a perfect example of their lack of support. Also they never documented the SLIC code that was added with patch 1.2. Then there is the lack of a map-editor, all examples of how they discourage scenario- and mod-makers.

I think CtPI isn't necessarily dead as soon as CtPII is released, a lot of people will wait a while before buying it and some people won't buy it at all, so I think CtPI will be alive for a while (or longer) after the sequel is released and when it is released is still unclear as well, it would be the first Civ-game not to be delayed for at least several months. So IMHO that should not discourage anyone from making scenarios.

I must agree with you on working together, that's the best way when making scenarios. It takes a lot of time indeed if you want to do it on your own.

Can't wait for your WWII scenario I have no idea when my ancient scenario will be ready, it's not on top of my to-do list and collecting all needed graphics could take some time. Most of my graphics will probably come from AoE - once they're converted everyone can use them but to convert them could take some time. (If anyone wants to help... :cool

Locutus
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 02, 2000).]

[skorpion59]

Gemini,

If all you (or others) are looking for with flat-map is to use a terrain as a divider, that is easily accomplished without SLIC. I can create a new terrain type (from any of the existing 24) and only allow 1 type of unit (from the existing land, mountain, shallow sea, deep sea or air) to cross it. Unfortunately, you can not block every type, that is why this has not been used. For instance, right now, I use dead tiles that only allow aircraft to fly over them. No, it is not perfect, but it is better than nothing. The AI doesn't tend to use aircraft all that much so, until SLIC flat-map is finished, this is the next best thing.

[gemini]

Hey Skorpion59, Well no actually I don't need flat map support for my scenario I was just pointing out some of the drawbacks that may discourage alot of people from making scenario's.

I really wish activision would have been on the ball about that subject but it's left up to us to find a solution and something like trying to fix it with slic is very frustrating and time consuming so I was just throwing the idea of using terrain to border up a map as more of a temporary solution.

I'd like to hear from some people though that have given up on scenario making for this reason, and if it was the only thing discouraging them from making a scenario.



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Gemini

[Dogmatrix]

Locutus,
I can grab a copy of Age of Empires and help with graphics conversion. I'm not sure on how you're doing it but I think I should be able to help as soon as I get a better picture editor than paint, please don't laugh, which should be soon.
Also to Gemini I agree with your comment about Activision's lack of support and their unannounced Info. I did, however find their SLIC doumentation useful, if a little vauge, but on the whole they've been noncommittal in there releasing of information, and even tips.

[Nordicus]

Gemini, guys...

Well put.
I've been reluctant to do a scenario because I reasoned that other areas needed immediate attention--I mean, what good is a scenario without some common sense additions, a challenging AI, and reasonable functionality...?
But I cannot wrap my head around the scenario set up--I can make a map of anything, try to improve diplomacy/the AI, whatever, but I become too quickly mixed up when it comes to scenarios....
That's a big reason why I haven't played in so long (the other is obviously because of so much modification)--I hate random maps and want to play on a massive earth map only, I have no interest in any other kind. So, I can make one, but then I can't get it to work (no matter what I do or how much--very good--advice I receive from people like Don).
So, that's been the only really disappointing thing I have found and the most discouraging for me. I also wanted to add a bunch of my own units, but none of my programs can attach an alpha channel, so I cannot make a sprite. That kinda sucks, too.


Tom.

[WesW]

Good thread here, guys.
Just a note; I have been working on the Med mod 3 about three hours a day since the first of March, which comes out to about 200hrs. Also, there are seven other people who have or will contribute files or graphics for this mod, and they have probably spent twice as much time on it as I have, collectively.
I will say that the Medieval Modpack, which contains the Apolyton Pack, Nord's trade goods mod, and all my stuff, does more to improve gameplay than all the civ2 scenarios combined, imHo.

[gemini]

Hey guys, Well, Wes's mod is a good example of what is possible for ctp. I've been following the e-mail group that has been formed for his mod, and there are people out there that want to help out, that are interested and want to contribute.

Another point is that, even though there are few scenario's made or being made for ctp there are a whole slew of mods for ctp. I don't think there are that many mods for civ2(although I haven't checked and haven't played civ2 for a long time). I don't really think that civ2 was that great for making mods for it anyway cos of the limitations. Example, you simply can't have the amount of units in civ2 that you can for ctp. Although I know there was some sort of new add-on that may have made that aspect for civ2 possible now.

But as I pointed out before, civ2 is extremely easy for making scenario's. It's easy to make the units, and if you don't wanna make the units just steal them from someone else's scenario and slap them into your scenario.

I think Wes's mod is really going to motivate people to make scenario's because more units are becoming available because of his mod. More units are being made, and can be easily liberated(stolen) to make a scenario. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is the more unit's made available the more we are going to see scenario's come out. And it's going to take longer than in comparison to civ2 for us to get the number of scenario's out for ctp that civ2 has because of that fact.

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Gemini

[Dogmatrix]

gemini,
hope you're right about what affect the release of Wes's mod will have because there is so much more with CTP than Civ2, not bagging Civ2 it's just that it's lower on the evolutionary scale that's all. Kind of like the differences between Warcraft2 and Starcraft, Warcraft2 was cool and a great game when it came out but was simply surpassed by Starcraft when it came out, as far as gamplay was concerned. Also the fact that people will have a larger colection of Sprites to steal will make it just that much easier too.

Talk to you later, anyone who's reading!
[This message has been edited by Dogmatrix (edited May 06, 2000).]

[skorpion59]

I have to agree with you guys 100% although I would like to point out a few items most people (non-CtP folks) tend to overlook.

1) CtP should be compared to SMAC, if anything and neither should be compared to Civ2. Like Dogmatrix said, CtP is a totally different beast than Civ2. They are not even close in terms of their evolution and technology.

2) You have to give a product time to become the best at what it can be. I don't remeber Civ1 having a fantastic map editor and scenario editor (with 200 mods available) in the first 6 months of its release.

3) CtP has like 5 times the number of modifiable features as Civ2, so much more can been done. I agree with Wes here, his 1 MedMod scenario does more for CtP than all the 200 Civ2 scenarios put together. We're talking quality here, not quantity.

Lets face it, Civ2 was the only kid on the block for ten years. Knowing that, I can't help but wonder why Civ2 isn't 3 times the game it currently is.


I have no doubt one could produce a new CtP scenario which didn't look like CtP. This is not even close to being possible with the other games.


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Don,
CtPMaps (Hosted by Apolyton)

[Dogmatrix]

I sent an email to Activision with a few questions about CTP2 asking them about CTP compatibility. They probably won't answer but if they clarifiy a few things, maybe that you won't have a hard time converting CTP mods to CTP2, then it might be a useful thing to do. As I said they mightn't answer but at least there's a chance.

[Locutus]

quote: Originally posted by Dogmatrix on 05-03-2000 09:37 AM Locutus, I can grab a copy of Age of Empires and help with graphics conversion. I'm not sure on how you're doing it but I think I should be able to help as soon as I get a better picture editor than paint, please don't laugh, which should be soon. Also to Gemini I agree with your comment about Activision's lack of support and their unannounced Info. I did, however find their SLIC doumentation useful, if a little vauge, but on the whole they've been noncommittal in there releasing of information, and even tips.

Dogmatrix,

Sorry for my late response but I was out of town all weekend.

It would be great if you could help me convert AoE (and maybe AoK as well???) graphics to CtP format.
I will post the procedure for this in the 'Brainstorming room for getting together for scens' (I suppose that's the best thread for it) as soon as I have time to put it on paper, I'm a bit pressed for time right now.

Later,

Locutus

[Dogmatrix]

Locutus,
That's fine I don't know about AoE but I can definantly get AoE 2, that's what I origionally meant in my reply. I should be able to get a copy of AoE as well though. The good thing is that I might be able to use some of the pics as well for the Human part of my mod.

See ya later at the Brainstorming room then.