I will switch to linux when...

[Glak]

...more than half of my favorite games come out for linux first. It is that simple, yet most linux advocates don't catch on. The truth is I don't care all that much about performance or stability, in all my years of windows usage I've almost never had a crash (I have never once seen the mythical "blue screen of death") and my games run plenty fast. All that matters to me is when my favorite games come out. Nothing else.

Now how are you going to make it so that more than half of my favorite games come out for linux first? It isn't going to be by getting ports. Ports just keep people from leaving linux for windows, they don't actually attract people. So what has to happen is linux folks need to make games for linux, which is apparently what you're doing. However you still don't understand how to draw people to linux. I have no idea how fun your game is since I've never played it. See what I mean? It can't become my favorite game unless I actually play it. No I'm not going to install some whatever program to get your thing to work, well maybe I would if my friend ran up and told me freeciv was the best thing in the world.

I'm just trying to point out the facts. If you want linux to win it has to be better. Better does not mean faster or more stable. Once you understand that you'll have a chance, nothing more. Don't expect this microsoft break up thing to bring about some linuxian utopia. Those of us who want to play our games when they're originally released are still going to think windows is the best OS around, because quite simply it is.

[Jing]

Just to clear something up, we are not here to convert Windows users to Linux, although it wouldn't be a bad thing if it did. It just so happened that Freeciv is developed primarily in a Unix environment, and it's much easier to run Freeciv under Linux until a native Windows port is available. Not to mention it's much easier to write software for GNU/Linux than for Windows because it's "free" (that's a whole different of can of worms so I won't even go there).

I don't want to get into an OS war here, but I just have to say that you must be extremely lucky to "almost" never have had a crash (and how "almost" is "almost" anyway?) while running Windows. I believe many other Windows users have a quite different experience. And for many of us, stability and performance do make a difference. I am also familiar with Unix from my work, so Linux is a natural OS choice for my PC.

However, I also have Windows installed on my PC for exactly the reason you have mentioned: many of my favorite games are simply unavailable on Linux. (I love Counter-Strike, a multi-player mod for Half-life, a good change of pace after playing too much Freeciv. I would also like to play Falcon 4.0 when I can afford that 1GHz CPU with a Voodoo5 5500 video card, after the brave team of F4 "hexers" have fixed the numerous bugs that practically ruined an otherwise great game.) Linux is simply not mainstream enough to attract many commercial game developers. Of course, this is changing by the minute and Linux is still evolving, and I believe the popularity of Linux will continue to grow with time, and therefore more and more games will be available on Linux.

So there is no need to argue, really. Linux is not for everyone, and I still think it's not ready for the "average" computer user. I also think the "average" user should probably use a Mac anyway, but that's another story.

[Thue]

So we are making a linux first game and telling you you will need linux. But you complain that you don't like linux because there isn't enough games that if foremostly linux, and we should make more?

Anyway, as Jing said you don't have to choose. Just dualboot.

So you say we should stop making ports to windows to get more windows users? That would be to limit peoples freedom to choose by force, which is excactly what linux is not about. If we did so we would be just like microsoft.
And freeciv is open source, so we can't stop people from making a port if they want to, even if we wanted too.
[This message has been edited by Thue (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Glak]

no I said you should make ports, in fact it should be a top priority. That is the only way to get windows users to like your game in the first place. I just figured I'd point this out since it seems most linux people are using the wrong arguments in a vain attempt to convert people, like my brother. He's very fanatical about linux. He doesn't even have X on his computer, he likes the no graphics look with tiny text so he can pore over boring stuff and optimize things that don't really need optimizing.

[Thue]

Um, no, you didn't. Sorry

[Glak]

from my first post:
"So what has to happen is linux folks need to make games for linux, which is apparently what you're doing. However you still don't understand how to draw people to linux. I have no idea how fun your game is since I've never played it. See what I mean? It can't become my favorite game unless I actually play it. "

the conclusion is that ports are a high priority (in terms of conversion, not in terms of your actual project). The "I have no idea how fun you game is since I've never played it" line especially leads to that conclusion. I most certainly did not say "So you say we should stop making ports to windows to get more windows users?" or anything like that.

and yeah I'm sure most linux guys aren't like my brother. He's quite extreme, moreso that most fanatics. He might have X but he did tell me that he doesn't have like all of whatever, err that was years ago I think can't remember. Basically anytime I look at his computer it looks like DOS but with a really small font so he can see everything at once. Yeah I think he has X since he uses a graphical browser, err as you can see I'm not familiar with the names of things but not like I really care. Oh and yes I starting to learn programming, however unlike my brother I'm making something that people will see and care about, and I'm doing it in java (hopefully by the time my game is finished computers will be strong enough to run it at an acceptable speed) instead of assembly. Having performance and stability and all that is nice, but it isn't the goal itself. Having applications is and he doesn't come close to grasping that. His computer has nothing but a browser, a text editor, and a compiler, and an email program. Nothing. His computer doesn't benefit him in any way since he never plays games. He considers using or even writing end user applications a waste of time. Hmm yeah I guess my brother has given me a false impression about what the rest of you linux folks are like.

[Jing]

quote: Originally posted by Glak on 05-10-2000 02:38 PM Hmm yeah I guess my brother has given me a false impression about what the rest of you linux folks are like.

In fact, there are quite a few other misconceptions about Linux, Linux folks, and Freeciv in your posts. I hope I can clear some of them up here, if not all. But first let me paraphrase your main argument so that everybody understand what you are trying to say. What you are saying is that if somebody wants you to abandon Windows and use Linux instead, they should make more original and fun games for Linux, not just porting Windows games to Linux. Then they should port these games to Windows so that you can see how great they are. And once more than half of your favorite games are first released on Linux, and only then will you switch to Linux.

This seems to be a perfectly reasonable argument. However, you are arguing against the wrong people. We are not trying to convince you that you should be running Linux. That is NOT the purpose of either the Freeciv project or this forum. If anyone come to Linux because of Freeciv, that would be just an added bonus, but not our intent.

Secondly, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Freeciv started as a port of the original Civilization to the Unix environment. Therefore, it is not really an original concept born to the Linux world. Of course, it has since developed into a much more sophisticated game and now has many improvements over Cic/Civ2. Development is active and on-going, and it will only get better over time. But still it has its roots in the great Civ/Civ2 tradition.

That brings us to this forum. We are here because we have one thing in common: we all enjoy the game of Civilization. It's nice to be part of the Civ "family". And we believe Freeciv can make the game better, not to mention that it is free. And we would like to make Freeciv available to as many platforms as possible, including Windows.

Finally, if you want to learn programming, you'd better pay attention to the "names of things" so that you know what you are talking about. And please don't make assumptions and sweeping generalizations about things you don't understand. But of course, you are free to ignore my advice, as you are free to run Windows on your PC.

[This message has been edited by Jing (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Kumiorava]

Linux, as any major OS, was not designed with gaming as the highest priority. Many of the users have never bought any software for their system since its mostly open source and freely available, and thus there has never been a serious demand for commercial games in the community. Only quite recently has that come up. It all begins with porting companies like Loki. Until major software houses realize the potential of Linux and that some users would happily pay for their games, there will be no real developement. But times will change. We are now at the focal point, where Linux has reached the level of Windows and Mac in ease of use, without loosing any of its efficency. That's the real advantage of open source - when a lot of people who continuously use the product also develope it, we get superior results. This should attract a lot of new users to Linux that previously went with other, commercial OSs because of their supposed ease of use. But untill the game houses realize this potential, you might be better of with Windoze (or some game console), if all you use your system for is gaming.

[Jing]

quote: Originally posted by Glak on 05-10-2000 09:59 AM no I said you should make ports, in fact it should be a top priority. That is the only way to get windows users to like your game in the first place.

We certainly would like to see a Windows port so that more people can enjoy Freeciv. It is just that nobody has got around to it yet. Please bear in mind that this is an open source project that people do for free in their spare time. The original goal was to provide a port of Civ/Civ2 for the Unix environment, but it has since outgrown its roots, improved upon the original Civs in many ways, and now runs on more systems than just Unices. A Windows port was never considered a priority because Civ2/CTP/SMAC was available to Windows users.

Currently Freeciv is very close to Civ2 compatibilty, and plans are in place to go beyond Civ2 and make it a even better game. A Windows port would certainly help to increase its popularity. With the help of the exposure on this forum, I hope some Windows programmer would step up and make it happen. Then you will be happy, I guess?

quote: I just figured I'd point this out since it seems most linux people are using the wrong arguments in a vain attempt to convert people, like my brother. He's very fanatical about linux. He doesn't even have X on his computer, he likes the no graphics look with tiny text so he can pore over boring stuff and optimize things that don't really need optimizing.

Maybe I haven't made it clear enough, so here it is again: we are not some Linux fanatics who are trying to convert every Windows user to Linux. It is just that for now at least, it is easier to do it with Linux if you want to play Freeciv. If that is too much trouble for you, then fine, you can wait for the Windows port, which I hope will be available soon.

As for your brother, I am not sure if he is a fair representative of the majority of Linux users. (Are you sure that he doesn't use X?) If he really wants to convert you, he should show you how to play Freeciv on his Linux system (provided that he has X installed). And finally, although you may find programming "boring", you have to remember, without people working on the "boring" stuff, you wouldn't have any games to play at all. Just a little reminder.


[This message has been edited by Jing (edited May 10, 2000).]