GUI: Graphical User Interface

[vovan]

In response to Mark_Everson's post, and to keep the general GUI discussion separate from the other graphics.

Originally posted by Mark_Everson in Unit Graphics 2 thread:
Lee, and Vovan, how about some art for the respective GUIs you guys are working on? Should we start a separate thread on graphics for GUIs? The concerns are quite different from both units and tiles. Anyone who has the first big request in the general GUI area could start the General GUI Art thread.

Well, I don't have so much a request for specific grpahics, as just general thoughts.

The current GUI does need reworking. However, I don't think that Lee or I can make specific requests right now. Mostly because the style and the "look and feel," as it is put in Java, is not defined for this project yet.

For instance, I will probably need some kind of an OK and cancel button. But so will Lee. And if we have those in different styles, it would look odd and out of place. Therefore, I think that we might want to just kind of decide how the interface will generally look. Will we keep it windows-style? Or will we change it to give the game more flavour? That probably needs to be decided on a more general level than the specific aspects of the game that we are working on.

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for getting this thread going Vovan!

I had in mind at some point to get away from the utilitarian windows look and go to something with thematically matched skins. But at this stage I don't think its a problem for you and Lee to do different things. That way we'd get to see two different approaches and see what people have to say about them.

What do others think on this issue?

[LDiCesare]

KISS.
Just use the default OK/cancel buttons for now, we can change them later when we have clear ideas of what the GUI should look like.
Right now, I saw a oui/non (yes/no) button in the game. I am quite sure noone put French resources in Clash, so it must be the default button. It may look ugly and strange, but at least you won't be wasting coding time on stuff we will throw away.
The windowesque stuff will have to be gotten rid of at some stage, but I am quite unable to make any proposal.

[targon]

You may implement some themed "skinning", in great tradition of mp3 players, along with interface localization. BTW, how Java works with pixmap'ped widgets (buttons scrollbars etc.)? Creation of customized widget skins would be pretty simple, I think. But distrust commertial games "look and feel", as most of their interface screens are, in fact, custom drawn static images rather than usual UI.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Well i still think each region should eventually have its own style gui depending on what you choose at the start. Oriental, Indian, Central American, etc.

[Richard Bruns]

I would like to go against the current and say that I like the utilitarian windows interface. That was one of my favorite things about Civ2. While other games take up my entire screen, make multitasking impossible, and use some odd homebrew menu/command system that never works right, Civ2 acted exactly as a Windows program should. It is one of the few commercial games that actually cooperates with the OS rather than trying to dominate it, which meant that I could easily do things like check e-mail in the middle of a game. I think we should keep Clash to that tradition.

In terms of commands, I will say here again that I always preferred the system of left-click for action, right-click for information. So if I left-click on something, it should enter some kind of command or bring up a command menu, while right-clicking simply brings up an information popup. So if I left-click on my unit, it is selected and ready for action. If I then left-click on an enemy unit, an attack command is entered, but right-clicking on that enemy will only bring up information about that enemy. My unit is still selected, but I haven´t ordered it to do anything.

Another possible system, the OS standard and the one you seem to be moving toward now, is to have left-click perform a default command while right-click brings up a more complete action menu. This also works well, but I think it is a bit less flexible and causes information to be harder to get.

No matter what system we use, we should only use one. There must be some single, unified system, or new players will be confused by the variety and have to remember a specific, different sequence for every type of command.

[Simon Loverix]

Heroes of might and magic 2 had both a full-screen mode and a windowed mode (which was identical, but with a window around it); practical.

Be sure to make a keyboard command available for everything. Some folks dislike to traverse the entire screen with the mouse pointer and clicking their wrist to ruin, just to perform basic commands like end turn or select next unit.
Clicks combined with shift, ctrl & alt are also practical: most people have two hands and can use them.

Left action, right info seems a clear guideline. Maybe left clicking (and of course a key) on an already selected unit can bring up the detailed action menu.

[Richard Bruns]

I second the part about keyboard shortcuts. They are a must for serious players, even if newbies never use them. Make it easy to transfer from the mouse to the keyboard. RTS games usually do a good job of this by highlighting the letter of the keyboard shortcut, but we can use the windows method of underlining the proper letter.

Holding down keys like control and shift and clicking is also good as an advanced option, but don´t force players to do this, since it scares new people off IMO.

[LDiCesare]

Here are my own preferences: Windowed, preferrably allow both windowed and full-screen. Many games have both options, but the windowed mode is usually hidden deep somewhere.

I think inside the game, using windows is possible but they's have to be prettier than what we have now (like those in civ2 for instance, which are customized by the game). I am not set for or against. The good thing with windows is everyone knows how to minimize them.
Note also we can use backgrounf images in the windows. CtP2 does that in the diplomacy screens (or maybe it is only Apolyton pack and cradle mods?): You have a semi transparent background image representing a leader, and text appears on top of it. Using windows with background images would make the look of the game better, but we have to still be able to read text and identify icons/buttons.

I agree with keyboard commands, but we need to have the clicks right before we do the shortcuts. In particular, all road-building, movemen-planning will require some thinking to shortcut (selecting unit, etc.), and if we ever change the mouse way of doing things, we must also change the keyboard way. So feedback on what actions are easily done with the mouse and which aren't is important before doing the shortcuts.

Mouse clicks:
I hate key + mouseclick. It's just me, but I really don't like that at all. Furthermore some combinations are limited because they are used (by Mac) to simulate right clicks.
Left click action is OK, right cllick shoud be a more detailed contextual menu. I think information can be provided by letting the mouse over the screen at some point, and then you show some help message/info/tip. In most programs it is done in a small box near the mouse pointer, but I saw it done (better and faster IMO) by displaying a message in a permanent message bar down the screen (I think it is in Age Of Wonder).

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Here are my own preferences: Windowed, preferrably allow both windowed and full-screen. Many games have both options, but the windowed mode is usually hidden deep somewhere.

I think inside the game, using windows is possible but they's have to be prettier than what we have now (like those in civ2 for instance, which are customized by the game). I am not set for or against. The good thing with windows is everyone knows how to minimize them.
Note also we can use backgrounf images in the windows. CtP2 does that in the diplomacy screens (or maybe it is only Apolyton pack and cradle mods?): You have a semi transparent background image representing a leader, and text appears on top of it. Using windows with background images would make the look of the game better, but we have to still be able to read text and identify icons/buttons.

I agree with keyboard commands, but we need to have the clicks right before we do the shortcuts. In particular, all road-building, movemen-planning will require some thinking to shortcut (selecting unit, etc.), and if we ever change the mouse way of doing things, we must also change the keyboard way. So feedback on what actions are easily done with the mouse and which aren't is important before doing the shortcuts.

Mouse clicks:
I hate key + mouseclick. It's just me, but I really don't like that at all. Furthermore some combinations are limited because they are used (by Mac) to simulate right clicks.
Left click action is OK, right cllick shoud be a more detailed contextual menu. I think information can be provided by letting the mouse over the screen at some point, and then you show some help message/info/tip. In most programs it is done in a small box near the mouse pointer, but I saw it done (better and faster IMO) by displaying a message in a permanent message bar down the screen (I think it is in Age Of Wonder).

I was going to post on this stuff, but I was fortunate enough in that Laurent said pretty much everything I wanted to. So, until further notice its:

"What he said" for me.

[LFS]

Java allows appearance to be changed fairly easily through custom L&F.

I think the way actions are performed is in real need of re-doing - there is to much select a square/TF select an action from abutton on the tool bar, select the square to move to/build road, reselect the action button to end action, select another unit and repeat
There is far to much mouse movement to perform common tasks.

I'm not a fan of windowed games - or rather the moveable/closeable/resizeable internal frames.

[vovan]

I agree. The system of manipulating the game with mouse is in much more trouble than the graphical part of the interface.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by LFS
I think the way actions are performed is in real need of re-doing - there is to much select a square/TF select an action from abutton on the tool bar, select the square to move to/build road, reselect the action button to end action, select another unit and repeat
There is far to much mouse movement to perform common tasks.

Hey Lee,

I'm game to hear a better spec. A lot of that stuff was determined in a very ad-hoc manner. Did you know that you usually don't need the last "end action"? FE for movement, if you double-click on the final move square, it automatically drops you out of move mode. We are aware the movement interface is klunky and did at least a few remedial things to make it better. But it obviously ain't there yet.

And this is certainly the thread to do the suggesting in!

[Simon Loverix]

Laurent:
Imperialism did the permanent message bar. They showed a graphical representation of goods and moving the cursor over it would make the exact quantity appear over there. Very practical.

Key+mouseclick is just a way to add some much-used mouse commands and avoid a menu infestation. But it should be an alternative, not the only way. Having a visible button for everything is probably a must for a complex game like Clash.

[Richard Bruns]

The folowing is, IMO, a very easy to improve the GUI:

I recommend getting rid of the event window popup altogether unless something really important happens. They are very annoying, and also seem to be a resource hog. There is a big patch of wasted screen real estate down at the bottom, to the left of the popuation figure and the turn and date, which would be a perfect place to put the treasury and growth rate information. If we eliminate the fairly pointless messages about tech growth, then the event window only has to pop up after battles or event-driven messages.