Announcement

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 17:20

Hmm ok looks like the Never ending turn bug still persists in Demo 7. I'll try toi describe what happened best as I can. I was playing Rom scen again and had a few movements mapped out for some different TFs. After I hit end turn it felt like the game was going really slow... it displayed the initial new turn info, but none of the TFs moved at all. I waited for nearly a minute with nothing happening, then I started assigned move orders to my new units and tried to hit end turn again... and it popped up that irksome message again :\ I think you had the right idea, you need to add more error checking routines in the newturn routines. Hopefully we can solve this conundrum by D8.

Also: I'd like to see a simple New Game/Restart type menu option under file so I don't have to completely close and reopen when I need to restart. Pretty simple although non-essintial.

The bug where the new units appear a turn later than they are supposed to is still in effect as well. Kinda annoying

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 18:39

Hmm each time I try Rome scen I can't get past turn 2 or 3 before it starts the Can't end turn bug. Since no one else has really complained a lot about it I can only assume its having some odd conflict with my econ or ruler settings that perhaps other people haven't tried yet (education, for example... does it do anything right now anyway?)
I'll try a seeded game next time .

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 19:08

A slight addition to some previous bugs listed here:
I get the fatal error which crashes Clash any time I give a new move order to a TF that currently has move orders if I don't cancel the previous move order.

Also, I think the NullPointerException can happen on squares that aren't on the bottom row, although it still seems most predominant on the bottom row. This was mentioned on Demo 6 comments thread somewhere, but I'll mention that I agree that the selection should move to a TF when you click next TF and none are selected.

Saving is good too, hope to see it by 8

**Mark_Everson** · May 29, 2002, 19:36

Hi Twinge, thanks for starting up the thread, and all the playtesting you've done! I have to warn you that the social model (Ruler button) is close to being functional, but not quite there yet. So it's best you ignore that for the time being. We'll get the social model going for demo 8. For that reason, there are a lot of bugs in the social code, and it's best that you don't touch it. Some of your stability problems clearly come from that model. Your comments will be useful when we start working in that area again. For now, we've got too many things "kinda working", and need to get demo 7 out to test the things that are working...

I let Gary know about this thread, and hopefully he'll check it out when he goes through his debugging pass over the code in the near future. Maybe even tomorrow if we're lucky.

It already crashed the first time I tried to run it :b I get the following when I try the Rome Scenario on COmputers only

That bug is already fixed in the more up-to-date code. It was my stupidity, and Gary brought it to my attention about a week ago.

I guess if it easy to fix Gary can put in the "new game" option. Just depends how much work it would take as to whether it's worth it or not at this point. I also would like to see the thing where units appear one turn late fixed, it's pretty annoying.

Education doesn't do anything yet, but when I get the chance once the population auto-migrations stuff is set up, I'll put it in as generating research points for the tech model if nothing else.

I wish I could tell you what exactly you are doing that is making things so unstable. As I said don't play with the ruler settings. I guess use the -seed switch, just do a few things per turn and record them, and then we'll know at least how to duplicate the bugs.

On save games, there are many others who agree with you, but I have this fear that that would take many months to implement, and that there are a lot more important things to do first. That's why I'm still against the concept. YMMV But I'm not a dictator here, so I may well get outvoted despite how enlightened my opinion is

.

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 20:21

I suppose save games would be difficult considering the insane number of variables you have =) But obviously to make htings look simple and realistic they need to be friggin complex on the inside. Still, I'm thinking it's a bit easier than you think it is. It is largely saving all of the important variables to a file and being able to load them. Would still take a while I'm sure... by D9, I would hope to see it.
I don't think I edited the ruler settings every time I did that, and obviously the ruler stuff wasn't even an option in D6 where I first encountered the no-end bug, so if it has to do with user-settings it's pretty well gotta be in the econ. The fatal error/assigning movement over old movement bug very likely has nothing to do with settings either.

The new game option -should- be quite simple. Simple Close all open windows, Run all functions you run on exit, then run all functions you run on startup. That would work in any other programming language I've used, so I think something similar should work fine unless java has more odd quirks I don't know about.

I also thought it kinda odd I started learning metalurgy and such on Dawn when the only tech avaiable to select is Farming =) On a side note to techs, I hope the pop-up events thing isn't supposed to stay exactly how it is. The Info pane seems fine to me unless there's something else in particular you want to use the space for. Things like how your tech is advancing should certainly go there, since it's irritating for it to pop up your farming level is now 0.0! 10 turns in a row.

btw, Are the details of all those tech variables described in the tech model? Just kinda wondering on actual game effects of the changing variables; rps goes down as the civ grows, k goes up as well, V goes down, H goes up, and the TechLevel, obviously, goes up. Just wondering what effect those variables have on the game =)

**Mark_Everson** · May 29, 2002, 22:25

Originally posted by Twinge
I also thought it kinda odd I started learning metalurgy and such on Dawn when the only tech avaiable to select is Farming =)

Yeah well, the tech Info is being cobbled together as we go along...

On a side note to techs, I hope the pop-up events thing isn't supposed to stay exactly how it is. The Info pane seems fine to me unless there's something else in particular you want to use the space for. Things like how your tech is advancing should certainly go there, since it's irritating for it to pop up your farming level is now 0.0! 10 turns in a row.

I actually prefer the Events box. Did you know that you can select a line of text and get more detailed information from it? (That feature for the tech isn't available yet) I personally don't like the fact that it pops up, but I can live with that. If you search the forum for "Events" or perhaps "information" you can find the thread where it is discussed, and put your thoughts there where they'll have a hope of getting into our institutional memory, and can be discussed at more length.

btw, Are the details of all those tech variables described in the tech model? Just kinda wondering on actual game effects of the changing variables; rps goes down as the civ grows, k goes up as well, V goes down, H goes up, and the TechLevel, obviously, goes up. Just wondering what effect those variables have on the game =)

Yes, all that stuff is there in the tech model. We are right now I exactly working out the effects that they have on the game. You can see some of our first attempts in the technology demo 6 thread, and also the technology prototype thread.

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 22:47

I don't have a whole lot against it, but I think it should only show important events... It shouldnt say things like "Your tech level is still the same it's been for 5 turns!" That should be put in some sort of history or info window instead. (Could make the info window only appear when you open it from a menu or something)

I'll look through those other (long, I'm sure) threads when I get a chance, maybe tommorow.

**Mark_Everson** · May 29, 2002, 23:08

Originally posted by Twinge
I don't have a whole lot against it, but I think it should only show important events... It shouldnt say things like "Your tech level is still the same it's been for 5 turns!" That should be put in some sort of history or info window instead. (Could make the info window only appear when you open it from a menu or something)

Mostly I just stuck the tech info there so I could see it. I could make it so it only showed when a new level is gained... Guess I'll do that evenutally, but the 0.1 steps are handy info for now. But I"m with you that for the release we should pick an interval of improvement and only report tech when that line is crossed.

**Twinge** · May 29, 2002, 23:36

Or just put it in the info pane instead of the Events pane.

**Twinge** · May 30, 2002, 02:25

Hmm played seeded Rome and suprise surprise it bugs out turn 3 again.
I didn't record -exactly- what I did but this should be close enough:

I went city to city giving different econ orders to each. In Marsaglia I put 99% in Warrior so I could pump one out for some sort of defense. Throughout the other citys I put some funding into Army Supplies, Elephants, Hordes, Phalanxes, Warriors, Road Building, Farms, Production, resources, and some in each of the 4 techs. Totalling:
AS - 36
Ele - 31
Horde - 92
Phalanx - 91
Warrior - 108
Road - 13
Farm - 18
Prod - 5
Resource - 3
CombatT - 3
FoodT - 11
ManT - 8
MilT - 5

I did not touch the ruler section. I assigned a move order to the extra TF in Rome to move up to Marsaglia. I set a road build que from Naples to Marsaglia on turn 2. I can't think of anything else. hopefully that's close enough to reporduce it.

They're so low since, apparently, there's econ orders for each of the non-city squares too

that kinda sucks... Can't very easily assign orders to individual citys when theres nearly 50 squares to work with. Don't have a full cure for that yet... maybe group a city and all surrounding squares associated to it?

btw, who is Fred??

(from the tech file)

**LDiCesare** · May 30, 2002, 03:58

Hi Twinge, do you have the stack (the NullPointerException stuff) for the turn-3 hangup?
Giving orders to the whole civ can help lower micromanagement a lot.
I already told Gary about the crash when tou move a TF that already got an order. I bet it is somewhere on his huge todo list.

**Twinge** · May 30, 2002, 05:55

There needs to be some limit to the power circles. I had one that enveloped like 8 squares. Make it cover the square at the largest. Might make it relative to the strength of other combat units...?

Hmm ok, I think the following error relates to the turn lock up, since its been there twice in a row:
java.lang.NullPointerException
at game.movement.Path.getImmediateDestination(Path.ja va:214)
at game.manager.orders.MovementOrder$SingleMovement.g etImmediateData(MovementOrder.java:326)
at game.manager.orders.MovementOrder$SingleMovement.c arryOut(MovementOrder.java:270)
at game.manager.orders.MovementOrder.carryOut(Movemen tOrder.java:100)
at game.military.lists.Units.carryOutOrders(Units.jav a:111)
at game.manager.TurnManager.movement(TurnManager.java :134)
at game.manager.TurnManager.run(TurnManager.java:78)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

update: I'm 95% sure this error is associated with the bug now.

I've also done a much simpler seed where I think you can reproduce the effect:
Rome Scenario, playing as Romans. First turn: Set The Whole Civ Econ orders to 5 in all the categories I listed previously (Army, Warrior, Phalanx, Elephant, Hoard, Legion, RoadB, Farms, Production, Resources, And all 4 techs)
Move the extra phalanx from rome up to the top city. move the triemes out to sea towards the top city, roughly (I doubt the exact move matters). End turn. On Turn 2, disband the only combined TF you start with in Rome, and move the Non-Scorpio TF up to the top city as well. Plan Roads from your bottom city upward. If you end again it will hopefully psuedo-lock up.

I'll try it a few more times to see if I can figure out the exact situation instead of one with so many options.

UPDATE TO THE ABOVE: My best guess so far is that it involves the triemes. Try moving your triemes a couple turns out to sea on your first turn and the ending the turn twice in a row. You don't even need to set an econ settings. It should lock up right there =) Well that should solve half of it... too bad I still got it in D^ without triemes

**Mark_Everson** · May 30, 2002, 06:49

Thanks for isolating the problem down to the Triremes, Twinge. That should help in finding the bug. The more you can compartmentalize the error, as I'm sure you know, the more it helps!

For somewhat-localized builds the province level is the one we intend you should use mainly. The new units will then show up in the province capital. The tech-advancement stuff should probably just be all done at the civ level. Hope that helps explain the gameplay. Eventually we'll have a military build screen where you can just say build me these units (and probably also optionally "and field them in these places").

In terms of strategy, its interesting that you're trying to hold Marseilles. I just instinctively gave it up as a lost cause, and have made my defense in the cities of mid-Italy.

**LDiCesare** · May 30, 2002, 15:24

Twinge, thanks for the stack. I think I corrected the bug. I didn't manage to reproduce evertime however. I also corrected the movement-crashing the whole game bug. That makes 2 of the 4 stacks you showed that stand corrected.
As for holding Marseilles, I tend to send a few troops in southern France to keep Carthaginians buzy there and then build up a huge army to smash them down.
I believe we still have some bit of code that prevents ownership of a square to change. Should we put it back the way it was in D6 (being the only one to have armies there makes you owner of the square) or do we try to devise something more subtle?

Announcement

Demo 7 Testbed Bugs and Comments

Demo 7 Testbed Bugs and Comments

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment