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  • #16
    Btw: Confucious say, "Work smarter, not harder."



    As for C#, it's slated as the "Java killer". I believe that as much as I believe Delphi killed Visual Basic. (in case you didn't know...it didn't)

    What I wouldn't be surprised about is if they ended up just jockeying each other back and forth on new features, kind of like the relationship of PHP to ASP.

    I've heard that Java would have more to copy from C# than C# would have to copy from Java, but I have seen nothing convincing in that regard.


    But I'll sum it all up right now: The idea of language-neutral code- Good Thing. In the real-world it's a Nice feature- and that's it.

    It's a whole hell of a lot less important than they like to pretend, and will lead to some incredibly stupid ends. Writing a program in more than 1 language is like writing a book in more than 1 language- you can, but why the hell would anyone think that's actually a good idea?

    At most you should have 1 main language and 1 minor language, like Java and C++ (for instance). But the fact is, Java not only has the potential, but it already does it! That's what the Java Native Interface is for!

    But the JNI does kind of suck to use, or so I've heard, but already there are products which act like a wrapper to do the work of JNI even better, such as functionX (I think it's called that...).


    Other than the fact that Microsoft is interested only in dominance and nothing more (and willing to use any tool to obtain it, which has varying effects on The Rest of Us), Java has years of a head-start and Sun has said many times they want to release it as totally open-source when the option becomes a good one (they say they haven't done so to protect some company from coming along and producing a proprietary version of it, ie- Microsoft).

    In the words of a wise man, "Good software takes 10 years" http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...000000017.html

    And C# isn't even really "out" (ie, not beta...but then again, MS products never go out of beta...hee, hee, hee) yet, compared to Java's maturation time.

    It'll be at least 2 years before C# becomes a truly Good Idea, if not 3-5 years. Assuming it "takes", which it likely will. .NET is a lot bigger of a gamble, but if MS doesn't go extinct then it will stick too. They're resilient bastards, to speak highly of them, and they'll keep releasing new versions, each time slightly growing it's popularity.


    But it won't kill Java, though it may however 'kill' Delphi. But the majority of java's turf will stay under java, and the majority of MS's turf will migrate to C#, which might be good for all of us.

    C# may even be worth learning, but not now, and could be a fun thing to play with or even use. But hell, Java 1.4 finally fills out almost all my demands for a language - along with all the other java development products I desire - so I'm quite positive it'll be quite the long time before C# manages that.


    I do look forward to third-party support for Java in .NET though, and there are many iiiiiiinteresting plans for reverse-engineering C# itself, if not .NET along with it.

    If someone adds PHP support somehow too, that'd be excellant too. But as I said, it'll be a few years before C# becomes a viable choice.
    Better to be wise for a second than stupid for an entire lifetime.

    Creator of the LWC Mod for Civ3.

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    • #17
      would C# be good? I was thinking about getting a book on it once I get the new Visual C++ .Net compiler, COME OUT ON FEB 13 hehe, i'm so excited!

      BTW, kestrel email:kestrel18@bigpond.com was from this forum. if so, why'd you send me a virus just now?
      Last edited by DJ; February 4, 2002, 17:48.

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      • #18
        BTW, i highly doubt the Doc is a moron.
        Perhaps not, but certainly guilty of one moronic statement.

        Most places I work prefer Java because of the reduced cost, but also because it is easier to find competent Java coders than competent C++ coders. I suppose there are even fewer competent Assembler programmers, and virtually no competent machine code programmers these days.

        My feeling is that Java will last until it is replaced by an even simpler and cleaner system. Judging by Microsoft's past performance, C# is likely to be "feature-rich", that is, a pain to use.

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        • #19
          lol, like DirectX :-p

          Well, I did check out the document on it, doesn't seem to complicated. Didnt' get real deep into it tho, but I'm gonna buy a book on C# after my Java classes are over (err... I dont' think my teacher knows C++ so I have no clue as to why he's teaching Java). So far the class has been an Do-it-on-your-own basis, and everything is like C++ so I'm just breezing through it. We're writing out the programs on notepad and that's a pain cuz you dont' get the luxuries a compiler program brings.

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          • #20
            It is often said that errors which are runtime errors in C++ (plug in your favourite other language here) are compiler errors in Java.

            As someone who is extremely experienced in both languages (I have actually been a C++ programmer for longer than I have been a Java programmer), I can attest that that claim is true.

            On the other hand it is important to stomp on those who want to store lots of data in hash maps, without type checking. Every project gets them. If the person who wants to do that is the architect, woe to the project.

            Cheers

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            • #21
              I am guilty of using HashMaps without type checking. What is the standard approach?
              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

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              • #22
                Using HashMaps is not evil per se. It is just you don't put all your data in hashmaps, and you use hashmaps as private data so that they are only accessed by setTyped() and getTyped() methods. For example, the list of unit archetypes is a hashmap, but it is an implementation detail.
                Clash of Civilization team member
                (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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                • #23
                  Hash maps are fine for lists of homogeneous data, with, as Laurent says, accessors that force the correct type.

                  The kind of use that is bad is the one where you have in a hash map:

                  Key: "time" Value: Integer
                  Key: "location" Value: Point
                  Key: "size" Value: Dimension
                  Key: "color" Value: Color

                  and variations on this theme. If something goes wrong, it shows up as a runtime exception (usually a class cast exception), rather than. as it should be, a compiler error.

                  Cheers

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DJ
                    ... Anyways, I dont' have any solid views on C# or .NET as of yet, I'm really hoping to try them one day, just out of curiousity. ^_^
                    Here's a phrase from ZDNET that should help you:
                    Microsoft's C# is like Java with the 'reliability, productivity and security deleted'

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DJ
                      I always thought Java should stay in the internet domain, it seems better and more at home there than anywhere else. Maybe that's Java's true destiny, the internet...
                      What you are saying is exactly the opposite of what causes growth, evolution and enhanced productivity.

                      If everyone were to stay put in their boxes, not trying to break the limits, then we would not have Java 3D, nor Java nor C or C++ for that matter. We would still be stuck in Cobol. If programming ever existed.

                      I think it's time you open your eyes and explore the wide world of programming, there's a lot more to it than just programming C or C++. Personally I developed from C++ to Java, finding Java much better as it allowed me to think more in the design and less in small details, like pointer allocation/deallocation.
                      It was nice to be able to manipulate everyting, but with a good design, you don't really need to do 'dirty tricks' to make things work.

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                      • #26
                        umm... read that last sentence to me again... "maybe..." Come on, if you can quote surely you can read. I guess you're gonna be the one to make that next OS with java... with no dirty tricks huh! --> but, you don't need to know dirty tricks to do something like that right!?
                        Last edited by DJ; February 7, 2002, 17:52.

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                        • #27
                          umm... read that last sentence to me again... "maybe..." Come on, if you can quote surely you can read. I guess you're gonna be the one to make that next OS with java... with no dirty tricks huh! --> but, you don't need to know dirty tricks to do something like that right!?
                          I think that is just about the most incomprehensible post I have ever seen.
                          Mind explaining what you meant?

                          Cheers

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                          • #28
                            Java 1.4 is out

                            Hey guys,

                            Java 2 SE 1.4 is just out
                            read the specs

                            Some interesting cuts from the page:

                            "The AWT improvements include ... high-performance graphics which draw directly to the screen. (This latter feature is the equivalent of working with DirectX on a Microsoft Windows platform or SunTM OpenGL® for SolarisTM.)"

                            "We know of several game vendors who are just entering the Java game business because they can now deliver full-screen games, which finally puts them on equal footing with platform-specific games vendors."

                            Jorgen

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                            • #29
                              Oh hell, now I am going to have to fight off the people who want to start every method with 24 asserts.

                              Cheers

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                              • #30
                                I wouldn't be too excited about the Java updates. I'd suggest you guys look into C# and the .NET framework. It's like Java, but bigger and better! Plus,with the .NET framework, it'll allow you to take different blocks of many other types of code languages, and compile them into one. Really, I think Java needs to do more than come up with small updates if they want to keep up.

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