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  • #31
    Yeah, I know, that's why the smilie was there in my comment. If you can't understand hyperbole, his stuff would read Really weird .
    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
    Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

    Comment


    • #32
      What every body wanted to know........


      1)how do you want your tech?
      a- pre-req (civ-like) 0 0,0%
      b- RPG-like 19 73,1%
      c- in-between 7 26,9%
      d- don't care/know 0 0,0%

      2)what kind of ecology?
      a- stable 3 11,1%
      b- few effects 6 22,2%
      c- detailed 18 66,7%
      d- don't care/know 0 0,0%

      3) population
      a- homogeneous pop 2 7,1%
      b- divided by ethnicities only 15 53,6%
      c- divided by ethnic. & age 11 39,3%
      d- don't care/know 0 0,0%

      4) map
      a - Flat. 5 19,2%
      b - Cylinder. 7 26,9%
      c - Donut. 1 3,8%
      d - Cube structure. 3 11,5%
      e - Sphere. 10 38,5%
      f - Other. 0 0,0%

      5) military movement
      a- manual 14 50,0%
      b- large scale op. combat 14 50,0%

      6i) what do you want for social classes?
      a - Few default classes. 11 37,9%
      b - Many default classes. 6 20,7%
      c - Many custom created by a combi elements. 7 24,1%
      d - Many custom classes with unique attributes. 4 13,8%
      e- don't care/know 1 3,4%

      6ii) what social classes MUST be in?
      a - Labor Class/Workers. 17 17,0%
      b - Nobility/Aristocracy 15 15,0%
      c - Capitalist Class. 12 12,0%
      d - Military Class. 13 13,0%
      e - Religious Class/Clergy. 13 13,0%
      f - Bureaucrats. 8 8,0%
      g - Serfs/Slaves. 13 13,0%
      h - Scientific class. 6 6,0%
      i - Other. 3 3,0%

      7) ruler's power
      a - omnipotent 3 12,0%
      b - restricted 22 88,0%

      8) nomadic civs
      a - Would be nice. 22 84,6%
      b - Would be bad. 2 7,7%
      c - Don't know/don't care. 2 7,7%

      9) stability of empires
      a - Fairly stable, as in civ2. 6 19,4%
      b - Rising and falling, as in civ3. 9 29,0%
      c - Tormented by internal struggles 15 48,4%
      d - Don't know/don't care. 1 3,2%

      10) disasters&diseases are fun?
      a - Definitely, go all the way. 13 44,8%
      b - Yes, but don't overdo it. 13 44,8%
      c - No 3 10,3%

      11) not all provinces have all techs?
      a - province-level techs 13 52,0%
      b - Unique (civ-wide) tech level 12 48,0%

      12) internal conflicts between groups
      a - I don't want internal conflicts 1 2,6%
      b - internal groups trigger events. 16 41,0%
      c - internal groups controlled by an AI. 22 56,4%

      13) historical accuracy 0-10 (0=don't care) average: 6,6

      14) fictional scenarios?
      a - Clash should be strictly historical. 5 17,2%
      b - Nice, but less important 12 41,4%
      c - Make Clash super flexible 10 34,5%
      d - Don't know/don't care. 2 6,9%

      15) pirates
      a - don't implement them 1 3,7%
      b - implement them, but simple 14 51,9%
      c - implement them in detail 9 33,3%
      d - Don't know/don't care. 3 11,1%

      16) wonders
      open question - not processed

      17i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
      a - I would like them in my game. 15 78,9%
      b - I don't like the idea. 4 21,1%

      17ii) If you like dynasties, how to treat ruler?
      a - Immortal ruler. 2 13,3%
      b - Ruler belongs to ruling dynasty 8 53,3%
      c - Ruler belongs to specific dynasty 5 33,3%

      17iii) If you like dynasties, what's the ruler in democracies?
      open question - not processed

      17iv) if you like dynasties, who should they be applied to?
      a - For every character possible. 2 14,3%
      b - Only for specific types of jobs. 6 42,9%
      c - Only for govt jobs. 3 21,4%
      d - Only for the ruler. 3 21,4%

      18i) how integrated characters in the game?
      a - they are just an add-on. 2 10,0%
      b - Super integrated 6 30,0%
      c - I would prefer something in-between. 10 50,0%
      d - Don't know/don't care. 2 10,0%

      18ii) attributes for characters?
      a - Status 8 14,8%
      b - Alignment 7 13,0%
      c - Reputation 7 13,0%
      d - Intuition 6 11,1%
      e - Willpower 7 13,0%
      f - Charisma 7 13,0%
      g - Education 7 13,0%
      h - Other 5 9,3%

      18iii) skills for characters
      open question - not processed

      19) rivers
      a - Inside squares. 6 37,5%
      b - On the edge of squares. 10 62,5%

      20) demo priorities
      a - Savegames. 4 25,0%
      b - Map generator. 1 6,3%
      c - Map/scenario editor. 0 0,0%
      d - Technology. 2 12,5%
      e - economics/infrastructure. 1 6,3%
      f - Social model. 2 12,5%
      g - Government/Riots models. 2 12,5%
      h - Tile, resources and settling. 0 0,0%
      i - Diplomacy. 1 6,3%
      j - Trade/merchants. 0 0,0%
      k - Military AI. 1 6,3%
      l - Graphics and GUI update. 2 12,5%
      m - Other. 0 0,0%

      21) documentation
      a - Manual 6 30,0%
      b - In-game help. 10 50,0%
      c - Online documentation. 4 20,0%
      d - Something else. 0 0,0%
      e - I'm superman. I don't need help 0 0,0%



      Consider that:
      1) Not every person answered every question.
      2) When a person didn't choose an alternative, but commented on them, I interpreted it and put the "vote" on one or more alternatives.
      3) Some answers I didn't understand, like when someone mentions a game I haven't played. In those cases, I ignored the answer.
      4) Question 13 (historical accuracy) was badly phrased. People interpreted in different ways. So, I wouldn't trust the resulting average.


      Enjoy!
      Last edited by roquijad; July 25, 2003, 21:26.

      Comment


      • #33
        Rodrigo,

        For questions 6ii and 18ii, since it's possible to answer several things, it might be best to count the percentage as: how many people voted this point divided by total number of persons who answered the question. This could give something like Status 100% Alignment 80% etc. Tight now seeing 14% where probably everyone who voted on the question wants it is a bit misleading.

        And why do the military movement (5) have to be spli 50/50?
        Clash of Civilization team member
        (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
        web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

        Comment


        • #34
          Thanks for the analysis Rodrigo!

          I will take a closer look to see what the results tell us when I have a bit more time.

          -Mark
          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

          Comment


          • #35
            I suppose I should have a shot at this.

            Before answering the specific questions, I would like to make some general observations. I am a mathematical modeller by trade (with a PhD in maths) and have been a professional programmer for many years. I am also a very enthusiastic game player and student of the genre.

            As far as Clash is concerned I believe that I have earned my spurs, as it were, justifying my general comments.

            In producing a system (it will be more than a game) many factors have to be taken into account:

            1. It is a game and should be entertaining. To be entertaining it should be comprehensible. In particular there should be a reasonably clear connection between the player's actions and their results. Myserious black boxes can severely interfere with enjoyment of the game. If this aspect is ignored, people will not play it, or will play it once and give up in disgust.

            2. Anything can be coded. It is not necesary to decide (to select an example) between a ruler belonging to a single dynasty or a succession of dynasties, or between an all-powerful ruler, and one limited by realistic considerations. My reaction is always to say "provide both, let the player decide". In a slightly different context, a scenario designer should have extensive freedom of choice.

            3. Complicated models which have no visible effect on game play are an anathema. They generate bugs, they confuse players, and they are a maintenance nightmare. My own career as a mathematical modeller has taught me that it is better to have a simple model and expand it after it is working and tested and found to be reasonable, and is seen to have some detectable effect on the outcome. Any model that contains a formula with an exponential (or worse) expression is asking for trouble. These may be necessary for orbital calculations or such, but this is a game. It is a fact that all these equations can be approximated by a simple (quadratic at most) expression such that, in play, the difference is undetectable. There is an area of modelling called sensitivity analysis - this can be used to determine whether particular aspects of a proposed model are worth having. Putting everything in merely makes the program larger, more bug-ridden, and ultimately unmaintainable.

            4. The graphics aspect of Clash has always been a bottleneck. To a considerable degree, the success of Clash is going to depend on the available graphics, tiles and units.

            I have highlighted (highlit?) my choices and, where relevant, put a comment at the bottom.

            01) Technology:
            a - Prerequisite based, as in civ.
            b - RPG-like, as in the tech-model.
            c - In-between.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Technology is essentially discontinuous, within technologies slow and steady progress can take place. Talking, as the technology model does, of a slow improvement in transport, from walking to space ships is seriously inaccurate.

            02) Ecology:
            a - Stable environment.
            b - Few effects, as in civ.
            c - Detailed ecology, as in the model.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Player selectable.

            03) Population:
            a - Homogenous population, like in civ2.
            b - Divide by ethnicities only.
            c - Divide by ethnicities and age/gender.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Here is a case where I am unable to see any detectable effect on the game by adding age profiles.

            04) Map:
            a - Flat.
            b - Cylinder.
            c - Donut.
            d - Cube structure.
            e - Sphere.
            f - Other.

            The earth is a sphere. Why distort it? On a small scale, the difference between a flat map and a section of a sphere is not evident. So be it.

            05) Movement:
            a - Manually (with use of TaskForces and pathfinding orders).
            b - Large scale operational combat system.

            Player choice.

            06) Social classes:
            a - Few default classes.
            b - Many default classes.
            c - Many custom classes created by a combination of default elements.
            d - Many custom classes with unique attributes.
            e - I don't care about social classes.

            Player choice.

            a - Labor Class/Workers.
            b - Nobility/Landed Aristocracy.
            c - Capitalist Class.
            d - Military Class.
            e - Religious Class/Clergy.
            f - Administrative Class/Bureaucrats.
            g - Servant class/Serfs/Slaves.
            h - Scientific class.
            i - Other.

            Scenario designers choice.

            07) Ruler's power:
            a - Omnipotent ruler, as in civ.
            b - Restricted ruler power, as in RL.

            Depending on circumstances, player's or designer's choice.

            08) Nomadic civs:
            a - Would be an interesting addition.
            b - Would be unbalancing or useless.
            c - Don't know/don't care.

            Scenario designer's choice.

            09) Stability:
            a - Fairly stable, as in civ2.
            b - Rising and falling, as in civ3.
            c - Continuously tormented by internal struggles, as in RL.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Depending on circumstances, player's or designer's choice.

            10) Disasters&Diseases:
            a - Definitely, go all the way.
            b - Yes, but don't overdo it.
            c - No, the randomness is spoiling the gameplay.

            This is something that I have always felt adds absolutely nothing (except irritation) to a game, but which is easy for the game designer to put in. Shame on them.

            11) Provinces&Technology:
            a - Different tech levels, since it adds to realism.
            b - Unique tech level, else it would be too complicated.

            An unproductive complication.

            12) Internal conflict:
            a - I do not want internal conflicts in my civ.
            b - I want conflicting groups that trigger events.
            c - I want conflicting groups that are controlled by an AI.

            Depending on circumstances, player's or designer's choice.

            13) Historical accuracy:
            How much do you care about historical accuracy in a 0-10 scale? 0=doesn't care.

            This is a difficult issue. I suspect that it, de facto, rests with the scenario designer.

            14) Fictional scenarios:
            a - Clash should be a strictly historical game.
            b - Clash should be capable of supporting such scenarios, but this is less important than improving the normal gamaplay.
            c - Clash should be made as flexible as possible.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            For obvious reasons, this rests entirely with the scenario designer.

            15) Pirates:
            a - Pirates in strategy games are nothing more than a nuisance.
            b - Pirates should be implemented in an abstract manner.
            c - Pirates should be implemented in detail as characters/units/civs.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Scenario designer's choice.

            16) Wonders & Achievements:
            What type of things would you like to see, especially in the use of achievements that don't have to do with buildings (f.e. crossing the world for the first time, cure for cancer, women's suffrage, etc).

            Scenario designer's choice. However, Civ style wonders irritate me for their startling historical inaccuracy. One player gets the Hoover (or Boulder) Dam, so no-one else can build the Aswan Dam?

            17) Dynasties:

            i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
            a - I would like them in my game.
            b - I don't like the idea.

            Player's choice.

            ii)
            a - Immortal ruler.
            b - Ruler belongs to whatever dynasty currently rules the civ.
            c - Ruler belongs to specific dynasty and risks overthrow.

            Player's choice.

            iii) If you want dynasties, how would you like things to be handled in rebublics, democracies or other non-dynastical countries, esp. for ruling dynasties?

            Player's choice.

            iv)
            a - For every character possible.
            b - Only for specific types of jobs.
            c - Only for the ones that have governmental jobs.
            d - Only for the ruler.

            Other choices will have a minor impact on game outcomes, but a major impact on game administration.

            18) Characters:
            i)
            a - Characters in a strategy game are nothing more than an add-on.
            b - Characters should a integral part of Clash.
            c - I would prefer something in-between.
            d - Don't know/don't care.

            Depending on circumstances, player's or designer's choice.

            ii) What kind of attributes should be used for characters?
            a - Status
            b - Alignment
            c - Reputation
            d - Intuition
            e - Willpower
            f - Charisma
            g - Education
            h - Other

            Scenario designer's choice.

            iii) What type of skills should characters have considering the type of models? If you have ideas and post them please, also explain a little about what type of characters would use those skills.

            Scenario designer's choice.

            19) Rivers:
            a - Inside squares.
            b - On the edge of squares.
            c - inside polygons

            Having been that greatest supporter of edge rivers, I must point out that that was merely a stop-gap until proper polygons could be introduced.

            20) Demo:
            1 a - Savegames.
            3 b - Map generator.
            2 c - Map/scenario editor.
            * d - Technology.
            6 e - Improved economics/infrastructure.
            * f - Culture/Ethnicities/Religion (Social model).
            * g - Government/Riots models.
            4 h - Tile improvements, resources and settling.
            * i - Diplomacy.
            * j - Trade/merchants.
            * k - Military AI.
            5 l - Graphics and GUI update.
            7 m - Other. Polygons/microterrain

            Comment unnecessary. The aterisked items are ultimately of important, but not high on my priorities.

            21) Documentation: Which form of game documentation would be more useful to you?
            a - Manual
            b - In-game help.
            c - Online documentation.
            d - Something else.
            e - I have a special gift for understanding obscure game models, so I don't need any help.

            A proper civilopaedia (that is, a searchable one, with all topics included), supplemented by a tutorial and reference manual.

            Cheers

            Comment


            • #36
              how about a second survey?

              now that you know that some questions are more or less unanimously agreed on. perhaps we could look into the ones where there is more of a spread of opinion to see if some degree of unanimity can be found.

              e.g.:
              q 17 11, 14

              and some of those like
              19, 15, 5, 10, perhaps some questions to work out the range of opinions, whether people want both options, or somewhere inbetween.
              click below for work in progress Clash graphics...
              clicaibh sios airson tairgnain neo-chriochnaichte dhe Clash...
              http://jackmcneill.tripod.com/

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Give us feedback - answer our questions!

                Nota : Sorry, but if my tailor is riche, my english is poor.
                ...
                Really poor.






                01) Technology:
                a - Prerequisite based, as in civ.
                b - RPG-like, as in the tech-model.
                c - In-between.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                The actual model is cool for me. But i think a tech can cost less if another tech is know.
                I explain (i hope) :
                Level 1 => Behavior.
                Level 2 => Horse domestication.
                Level 3 => War charriot, cavalry...
                But "cavalry" is a far most advanced technology that "war charriot". I suppose an Egyptian can research "war charriot", because is simple, and only after research "cavalry".
                But a Scythe can prefer research directly "cavalry". Without the experience of the work with horse of "war charriot", i supose the cost is more that for the Egyptian ?

                I hope it's simple to create new tech tree ? And each civ can use "specials tech" or his own tree (i not think a "Cats civ" use "water techs" , or for more cost, but they can use far advanced war, hunt or hide tech, or for less cost) ?




                02) Ecology:
                a - Stable environment.
                b - Few effects, as in civ.
                c - Detailed ecology, as in the model.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                As in the model. Because a detailed ecology is a king way for a "civilisation game" (the civs games are just wargames, and i prefer build a civilization...).
                It's also permit more techs, interractions, disasters, diseases...

                I hope civs activities affect local (or global) ecology ? As a big wood industry can "raze" a forest square if don't care (as in Liban, know in past as a forest land)




                03) Population:
                a - Homogenous population, like in civ2.
                b - Divide by ethnicities only.
                c - Divide by ethnicities and age/gender.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                Goog, gread, divine idea !
                Ethnicity conflicts are frequents. It's permit lot of government rules ("The bunnies are the gods sons. Less tax from the bunnies"), riots ("The Pigs are responsible for the pest ! Kill all Pigs !), religious (Africans are used in USA plantation because is not authorized by Rome to use Amerindian, for exemple) or political problems, (It's simple for a Fox civ to see an other civ is a "Fox enslaver" and react to that... with the support of the population) and a more comprehensible slave market (If Horses are hight price slaves, i't more profitable for slavers to attack Horses, and anti-slavers known how et who are the slavers...).

                Same for sex : Slavers can prefer a sex (male, generaly, because male work more. Sorry...), it's possible to refuse to a a sex the hight fonctions, rules can be different for a sex... And, of course, the number of females are important for population growth or internal problems (Lion must have a lot of females each, else riots, for example).

                For age, this is important : Children are prey for diseases, and only Matures can work, but Childrens et Elders must have too eat, for example.




                04) Map:
                a - Flat.
                b - Cylinder.
                c - Donut.
                d - Cube structure.
                e - Sphere.
                f - Other.

                All that. It's be cool to change : One game on a "sphere", another on a "flat"... No bretzel ?




                05) Movement:
                a - Manually (with use of TaskForces and pathfinding orders).
                b - Large scale operational combat system.

                I prefer move my military units myself, because IA is not i my place (and is generally stupid).
                Ah, and you say :
                [i]The entire mobilization, movement and combat of Caesars conquest of Gaul was contained in less than 1 Clash "turn".[i]

                It's not possible to modifie the turn length ? I prefer ancient time, and i hope Clash is not a "XXe century wargame only or so", as others civs...).




                06) Social classes:

                i) How many classes would you like to see in a typical game and in what form?
                a - Few default classes.
                b - Many default classes.
                c - Many custom classes created by a combination of default elements.
                d - Many custom classes with unique attributes.

                e - I don't care about social classes.

                I like the idea to create "social class" for a civ or another.


                ii) What social classes (or elements of complex classes) you think must be there in the typical whole-history game?
                a - Labor Class/Workers.
                b - Nobility/Landed Aristocracy.
                c - Capitalist Class.
                d - Military Class.
                e - Religious Class/Clergy.
                f - Administrative Class/Bureaucrats.
                g - Servant class/Serfs/Slaves.
                h - Scientific class.
                i - Other.

                I prefer create my own classes, because a "large sample of class" are never really adapted to all civilizations. For example, the "g" : Servant, serfs, slaves.

                In middle-age, a serf is more free, than a slave. But at others centuries (christian roman empire, for example), a man is more glad to be slave than to be serf... For the master, a serf cost is null, a slave cost is heavy (for the economy, it's important).

                Other example : In ancient civilization, the class Nobility, Landed aristocracy, or military can be the same... or not.

                An idea :
                Create class "dirigeant", "not dirigeant but with rights", "not real rights, but citoyens (us, in our 'democraties'...", "Obey or die" and "simply slaves".

                Or another :
                Create "standard" classes, but also the possibility for a civ or another to have custom class, or not to have a particularly class.




                07) Ruler's power:
                a - Omnipotent ruler, as in civ.
                b - Restricted ruler power, as in RL.

                Be carrefull for the rules of that. The "friendly democratie" of the Civ games are so... unreal.


                08) Nomadic civs:
                a - Would be an interesting addition.
                b - Would be unbalancing or useless.
                c - Don't know/don't care.

                Yow : There are two "germans". The first are, in fact, celts (in Cesar epoch), the others are mix between celts, northman, and others (the "great invasions").
                And all this are not nomadics (the White Huns are not reals nomadic).

                The real nomadic are just a "threat". A suggest a "nomadic civ" can more her cities... but unmovables infrastructures are not movables and form "dead cities" (as if an entire population is killed, the citie is note obligatory entirelly destroyed, and another "settler" can built a new citie and "recuperate" the old undestroyed infrastructures).

                I think that you call "nomadic" are, in fact, two differents things :

                - Real nomadic (very rares). In plain only, and attack other civs only for thief.

                - Members of a normal civ "emigrate" for create their own civ : If your civ is on the road...






                09) Stability: How internally stable you think empires should be along the thousands of years of play?
                a - Fairly stable, as in civ2.
                b - Rising and falling, as in civ3.
                c - Continuously tormented by internal struggles, as in RL.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                Civilization game :




                10) Disasters&Diseases: Do you think having disasters and diseases add fun to the game?
                a - Definitely, go all the way.
                b - Yes, but don't overdo it.
                c - No, the randomness is spoiling the gameplay.

                Yes. History is not planed, and "randomness" is juste the other name of "not planed"

                I suggest infrastructures and civ charasteristics can also battle disasters and diseases.

                Ah ! And i hope we can create our own diseases/disasters ? PANDA RAIN !





                11) Provinces&Technology:
                a - Different tech levels, since it adds to realism.
                b - Unique tech level, else it would be too complicated.

                Fun idea, but in fact i don't know. No real advice.




                12) Internal conflict:
                a - I do not want internal conflicts in my civ.
                b - I want conflicting groups that trigger events.
                c - I want conflicting groups that are controlled by an AI.


                Yep, but not totally AI, or totally trigger. I think randomness is always active in reality.
                And, please, use the "state of the nation". Less riots if the king is loved, for exemple. Or if a social class or a racial group is hatred, the victims of a conflict are us, i think.




                13) Historical accuracy: How much do you care about historical accuracy in a 0-10 scale? 0=doesn't care.

                0 ! If we return in the past, it's more or less *impossible* to return at the exact present.
                The "no change history", it's for the wargamers, not for us...




                14) Fictional scenarios:
                a - Clash should be a strictly historical game.
                b - Clash should be capable of supporting such scenarios, but this is less important than improving the normal gamaplay.
                c - Clash should be made as flexible as possible.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                The longevity of a civ or STR game is for a most past this "flexibility" (TA is more played actually than all the old STR, for example).

                And i hope play in a "furry civ". The "normal gameplays" is... What is a "normal gameplay", anyway ?

                I can help




                15) Pirates: Do you want to see pirates and the like in the game? If so, how detailed?
                a - Pirates in strategy games are nothing more than a nuisance.
                b - Pirates should be implemented in an abstract manner.
                c - Pirates should be implemented in detail as characters/units/civs.

                d - Don't know/don't care.

                A pirate can be the result of a bad government (as outlaws), or can be the life of a country...




                16) Wonders & Achievements: What type of things would you like to see, especially in the use of achievements that don't have to do with buildings (f.e. crossing the world for the first time, cure for cancer, women's suffrage, etc).

                No "equals" wonders : Wonders for "glory" (tourism are not an abstarction in antiquity), for use...

                A wonder can be a "pure wonder", a "wonder who replace a common building", etc.

                I don't think "women suffrage" is really a wonder : It's, for me, a government rule. The same for the "indiand company" of Civ 3 (or 4 ?) : It's the result or government rule, military conquest and protectionim (as "i sell, but only me can sell".

                And, *ahem*... we can create our own wonders ? With real new effects ?

                Examples or wonders for a "real world" :

                Temples for one or another god (if gods exist in the world, a wonder as is provides real bonus, and else only "gold bonus" from tourists and worshippers) : Artemision, Solomon's temple, Sainte-Sophie, Delphes's Oracle, etc.

                Military structures : Big structure as "Krak des chevaliers", Chateau Gaillard, Chinese wall (no effect in the RL, this), internal military harbor (as Carthage), "marvelous use of geographic situation", etc.

                Pure glory for the dirigeant (or the nation) : Arc de Triomphe, Eiffel tower, etc. Effets for tourism, stability, worship of the dirigeant or the nation, etc.

                Glory and use : Trajan forum (effects of the glory, and "super-market", i think).

                In fact, i think it's possible to create one or more wonders for each normal structure, BUT the civ must have build a "normal" structure of the same type if this is the case. Hey, a wonder is rarement the first of this type, no ?

                Another idea : A wonder can be "outer-city". For example, le Krak des chevaliers is a super-fortress.

                Other : The Suez canal can be construct between two water squares, with a lenght of two squares max, but not on hills or mountains squares. The Panama canal can be construct on moutains or squares, but for a length of only one square.
                Effect ? Free passage for all the ships of the owner, and pay for thoses of others civs




                17) Dynasties:

                i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
                a - I would like them in my game.
                b - I don't like the idea.

                No idea. Sound fun, but is it really fun to play ?
                If dynasty, allow mariages and other stuffs ? And heritages ?


                ii)
                a - Immortal ruler.
                b - Ruler belongs to whatever dynasty currently rules the civ.
                c - Ruler belongs to specific dynasty and risks overthrow.

                The three !


                iii) If you want dynasties, how would you like things to be handled in rebublics, democracies or other non-dynastical countries, esp. for ruling dynasties?

                More the nation is stable, honest and the population educated, more the dirigeant is "powerfull".

                No, i don't think big universities "educate" a nation.


                iv)
                a - For every character possible.
                b - Only for specific types of jobs.
                c - Only for the ones that have governmental jobs.
                d - Only for the ruler.

                I don't understand this question.




                18) Characters:

                i)
                a - Characters in a strategy game are nothing more than an add-on.
                b - Characters should a integral part of Clash.
                c - I would prefer something in-between.
                d - Don't know/don't care.

                Fun, if only are real characters, not as the Civ serie...




                ii)
                a - Status
                b - Alignment
                c - Reputation
                d - Intuition
                [b]e - Willpower
                [b]f - Charisma
                [b]g - Education
                h - Other

                honest or not, fidelity (for the nation, a social class, a race, a religion, a dynasty, the player ?), competent or not.



                iii)
                I don't understand this question.




                19) Rivers:
                a - Inside squares.
                b - On the edge of squares.

                Hem...
                Rivers bloc movments => a
                But...
                Cities are constructed on rivers => b




                20) Demo:
                a - Savegames.
                b - Map generator.
                c - Map/scenario editor.
                d - Technology.
                e - Improved economics/infrastructure.
                f - Culture/Ethnicities/Religion (Social model).
                g - Government/Riots models.
                h - Tile improvements, resources and settling.
                i - Diplomacy.
                j - Trade/merchants.
                k - Military AI.
                l - Graphics and GUI update.
                m - Other.

                No advice. Good work is good, for me.



                21) Documentation:
                a - Manual
                b - In-game help.
                c - Online documentation.
                d - Something else.
                e - I have a special gift for understanding obscure game models, so I don't need any help.

                Clashopedia


                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Give us feedback - answer our questions!

                  Well... I don't know if the project is still running, but as a new demo came out recently, I assume so
                  Here are my though for a perfect civ-like :

                  01) Technology
                  c - In-between.

                  02) Ecology
                  b - Few effects, as in civ.
                  (c would be ok too)

                  03) Population
                  b - Divide by ethnicities only.
                  (a would be ok too)

                  04) Map
                  b - Cylinder.
                  e - Sphere.
                  (doesn't really matter, a little plus for sphere maybe)

                  05) Movement
                  b - Large scale operational combat system.

                  06) Social classes
                  i) How many classes would you like to see in a typical game and in what form?
                  c - Many custom classes created by a combination of default elements.

                  ii) What social classes (or elements of complex classes) you think must be there in the typical whole-history game?
                  a - Labor Class/Workers.
                  b - Nobility/Landed Aristocracy.
                  d - Military Class.
                  e - Religious Class/Clergy.

                  07) Ruler's power
                  a - Omnipotent ruler, as in civ.
                  (otherwise this would spoil a lot of the game, don't care about realism here please !)

                  08) Nomadic civs
                  b - Would be unbalancing or useless.
                  (hard to balance for a minor benefit)

                  09) Stability
                  c - Continuously tormented by internal struggles, as in RL.
                  (succession of rises and falls, in order to avoid a permanent supremacy of one civ - the score has to be averaged at the end, though)

                  10) Disasters&Diseases
                  a - Definitely, go all the way.
                  (see previous point)

                  11) Provinces&Technology
                  b - Unique tech level, else it would be too complicated.
                  (I'm a fan of complexity, but this would be too much...)

                  12) Internal conflict
                  b - I want conflicting groups that trigger events.

                  13) Historical accuracy
                  2 (techs/eras need to be aproximatively historical, mainly)

                  14) Fictional scenarios
                  b - Clash should be capable of supporting such scenarios, but this is less important than improving the normal gamaplay.

                  15) Pirates
                  b - Pirates should be implemented in an abstract manner.
                  c - Pirates should be implemented in detail as characters/units/civs
                  (both are OK for me)

                  16) Wonders & Achievements
                  (no real answer to give here right now...)

                  17) Dynasties:

                  i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
                  a - I would like them in my game.

                  ii)
                  b - Ruler belongs to whatever dynasty currently rules the civ.
                  (ok for a, but definely not c)

                  iii)
                  The ruler has specific stats which can affect the domectic policies, but the player, like a deity, just control the whole civ, his power aren't limited to those of the leader. The character would be just like another strategical/random factor to deal with ; in democracy/republic, his stats corresponds to what the people wants more.

                  iv)
                  d - Only for the ruler.
                  (maybe for social class leaders too ?)

                  18) Characters:

                  i)
                  c - I would prefer something in-between.
                  (see Europa Universalis)

                  ii)
                  c - Reputation
                  f - Charisma
                  g - Education
                  (maybe b and e too ?)

                  iii)
                  (no answer for now)

                  19) Rivers
                  b - On the edge of squares.

                  20) Demo
                  m - I let the devteam choose whatever they think better ;-)

                  21) Documentation
                  a - Manual
                  e - I have a special gift for understanding obscure game models, so I don't need any help.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Give us feedback - answer our questions!

                    Seeing other people are still replying to this thread, I thought I'd have a go.

                    01) Technology:
                    b - Definitely RPG-like, but include fits and starts to account for breakthoughs and clever people like Archimedes and Galileo

                    02) Ecology:
                    c - Detailed ecology, as in the model. Love it.

                    03) Population:
                    c - Divide by ethnicities - v. good - and age/gender - good but not sure of use.

                    04) Map:
                    e - Sphere. After the province based system and auto-colonisation this is my no. 1 way to improve civ2. But its nails.

                    05) Movement:
                    c - not so bothered - would enjoy either

                    06) Social classes:

                    i) c - Many custom classes created by a combination of default elements.

                    ii) a - Labor Class/Workers.
                    b - Nobility/Landed Aristocracy.
                    g - Servant class/Serfs/Slaves.

                    07) Ruler's power: c - both
                    I think limited power would be good, but I might get annoyed with it so perhaps with the option to turn it off?

                    08) Nomadic civs:
                    b - Would be unrealistic

                    09) Stability: c - Continuously tormented by internal struggles, as in RL. But this could be really annoying so perhaps the option to turn down the extent in the game setup?

                    10) Disasters&Diseases: Do you think having disasters and diseases add fun to the game?
                    a - Definitely, go all the way.
                    But this could be really annoying so perhaps the option to turn down the extent in the game setup?

                    11) Provinces&Technology: Do you find interesting/fun if the available techs aren't the same in each of your civ's provinces?
                    b - Unique tech level, I don't think its unrealistic

                    12) Internal conflict: Do you like having to deal with internal conflicts such as struggles between religions, between ethnicities, between social classes?b - I want conflicting groups that trigger events.
                    AND
                    c - I want conflicting groups that are controlled by an AI.

                    13) Historical accuracy: How much do you care about historical accuracy in a 0-10 scale? 10. Otherwise I'd play Freeciv...

                    14) Fictional scenarios: How important you consider Clash being able to model non-historical scenarios such as fantasy games or sci-fi stuff?
                    c - Clash should be made as flexible as possible.
                    e.g. for some kind of lord of the rings style scenario - orcs have a faster reproductive rate therefore expand quicker

                    15) Pirates: Do you want to see pirates and the like in the game? If so, how detailed?
                    c - Pirates should be implemented in detail as characters/units/civs.
                    But this could be really annoying so perhaps the option to turn down the extent in the game setup?

                    16) Wonders & Achievements: What type of things would you like to see, especially in the use of achievements that don't have to do with buildings (f.e. crossing the world for the first time, cure for cancer, women's suffrage, etc).

                    Build big structures (to make up for small genitalia), but no unrelated benefits like in civ. Perhaps increase in trade and tourism.

                    There will never be a single cure for cancer because cancer is an umbrella term for a set of very diverse conditions. Therefore this kind of thing can be incorporated into RPG tech model with medicine advancing.

                    Policy things like women voting, freeing slaves, banning death sentence should be available in some kind of domestic affairs window at any time, but often these things have negative influence on power of leader.

                    United nations is effectively a big peace treaty

                    17) Dynasties:

                    i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
                    a - I would like them in my game.

                    ii) c - Ruler belongs to specific dynasty and risks overthrow.

                    iii) If you want dynasties, how would you like things to be handled in rebublics, democracies or other non-dynastical countries, esp. for ruling dynasties?

                    If democracies and republics played by human then

                    iv) Again if you like dynasties, do you want them for every character possible? Only ones that have governmental jobs? Only specific types of jobs? Or something else?
                    a - For every character possible.
                    b - Only for specific types of jobs.
                    c - Only for the ones that have governmental jobs.
                    d - Only for the ruler.

                    18) Characters:

                    i) a - Characters in a strategy game are nothing more than an add-on. I wouldn't object to them if they didn't get in my way

                    ii) h - Other. Don't know.

                    iii) Don't know

                    19) b - On the edge of squares. Then defensive advantage if attacked over river

                    20) a - Savegames.
                    c - Map/scenario editor.
                    This way we can make more fun things to test out the gameplay with.

                    21) d - Something else: Manual, In-game help and Online documentation. In-game help gets you started, the online documentation answers niggling questions and the manual is for hardcore people who really want to get the most out of every turn.

                    I'm done.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks guys! Yes, we certainly are still interested in feedback.
                      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        01) Technology:
                        a - Prerequisite based, as in civ.
                        b - RPG-like, as in the tech-model.
                        c - In-between.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        Don't know really. The suggested tech-model sounds interesting.

                        02) Ecology:
                        a - Stable environment.
                        b - Few effects, as in civ.
                        c - Detailed ecology, as in the model.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        Not too detailed, but with things like forest growing back and abandoned improvements turning into ruins.

                        03) Population:
                        a - Homogenous population, like in civ2.
                        b - Divide by ethnicities only.
                        c - Divide by ethnicities and age/gender.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        Divide by ethnicity. Not in our sense of ethnicity, every minor tribe cannot be represented, but if for instance one of my, let's say, american cities have a huge population of french within it then ofcourse this city will be severly affected if I declare war on France. Ethnic persecution and replacement has had a huge impact in real world history for many thousands of years. It's too an important political factor to leave out. And I wouldn't mind playing an evil dicator sometimes.

                        04) Map:
                        a - Flat.
                        b - Cylinder.
                        c - Donut.
                        d - Cube structure.
                        e - Sphere.
                        f - Other.

                        I like the sphere because then arriving at the poles could be important achievments.

                        05) Movement:
                        a - Manually (with use of TaskForces and pathfinding orders).
                        b - Large scale operational combat system.

                        Both. In early game when units are few there's no need for any operational combat system, but it would be a good thing later on.

                        06) Social classes:
                        a - Few default classes.
                        b - Many default classes.
                        c - Many custom classes created by a combination of default elements.
                        d - Many custom classes with unique attributes.
                        e - I don't care about social classes.

                        I'd say that classes are already incorporated in improvements and units. If for instance you build a farm the farmers working on it is presupposed. The military class is the units you have trained. The religious class dwell in the temples and churches you have built. There's really no need to complicate things further. Except perhaps in order to incorporate slavery.

                        a - Labor Class/Workers.
                        b - Nobility/Landed Aristocracy.
                        c - Capitalist Class.
                        d - Military Class.
                        e - Religious Class/Clergy.
                        f - Administrative Class/Bureaucrats.
                        g - Servant class/Serfs/Slaves.
                        h - Scientific class.
                        i - Other.

                        Scenario designers choice.

                        07) Ruler's power:
                        a - Omnipotent ruler, as in civ.
                        b - Restricted ruler power, as in RL.

                        Depending on circumstances, player's or designer's choice.

                        08) Nomadic civs:
                        a - Would be an interesting addition.
                        b - Would be unbalancing or useless.
                        c - Don't know/don't care.

                        A. Absolutely.

                        09) Stability:
                        a - Fairly stable, as in civ2.
                        b - Rising and falling, as in civ3.
                        c - Continuously tormented by internal struggles, as in RL.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        C. An ever changing political world would keep gameplay from getting boring.

                        10) Disasters&Diseases:
                        a - Definitely, go all the way.
                        b - Yes, but don't overdo it.
                        c - No, the randomness is spoiling the gameplay.

                        Don't overdo it. 19 epidemic diseases in the span of one game is certainly enough.

                        11) Provinces&Technology:
                        a - Different tech levels, since it adds to realism.
                        b - Unique tech level, else it would be too complicated.

                        b. There's no need to do this because it will in fact seem like that anyway. Different regions already develop in different speeds.

                        12) Internal conflict:
                        a - I do not want internal conflicts in my civ.
                        b - I want conflicting groups that trigger events.
                        c - I want conflicting groups that are controlled by an AI.

                        c. But don't overdo it. Getting thrown into a messy civil war should only happen to really incompetent leaders.

                        13) Historical accuracy:
                        How much do you care about historical accuracy in a 0-10 scale? 0=doesn't care.

                        6. I like it, but history is too complicated to become a game.

                        14) Fictional scenarios:
                        a - Clash should be a strictly historical game.
                        b - Clash should be capable of supporting such scenarios, but this is less important than improving the normal gamaplay.
                        c - Clash should be made as flexible as possible.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        b.

                        15) Pirates:
                        a - Pirates in strategy games are nothing more than a nuisance.
                        b - Pirates should be implemented in an abstract manner.
                        c - Pirates should be implemented in detail as characters/units/civs.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        d.

                        16) Wonders & Achievements:
                        What type of things would you like to see, especially in the use of achievements that don't have to do with buildings (f.e. crossing the world for the first time, cure for cancer, women's suffrage, etc).

                        First to get to the north or south pole. I like the grand building idea.

                        17) Dynasties:

                        i) Do you like the idea of dynasties?
                        a - I would like them in my game.
                        b - I don't like the idea.

                        Player's choice. But I think it's a matter of also choosing weather the AI-opponents will have dynasties aswell. That would have great impact on gameplay in many different ways.

                        ii)
                        a - Immortal ruler.
                        b - Ruler belongs to whatever dynasty currently rules the civ.
                        c - Ruler belongs to specific dynasty and risks overthrow.

                        Player's choice.

                        iii) If you want dynasties, how would you like things to be handled in republics, democracies or other non-dynastical countries, esp. for ruling dynasties?

                        Don't know.

                        iv)
                        a - For every character possible.
                        b - Only for specific types of jobs.
                        c - Only for the ones that have governmental jobs.
                        d - Only for the ruler.

                        d. only for rulers.

                        18) Characters:
                        i)
                        a - Characters in a strategy game are nothing more than an add-on.
                        b - Characters should a integral part of Clash.
                        c - I would prefer something in-between.
                        d - Don't know/don't care.

                        A. I like the idea of characters but I think they should only be additions to an already working game.

                        ii) What kind of attributes should be used for characters?
                        a - Status
                        b - Alignment
                        c - Reputation
                        d - Intuition
                        e - Willpower
                        f - Charisma
                        g - Education
                        h - Other

                        Scenario designer's choice.

                        iii) What type of skills should characters have considering the type of models? If you have ideas and post them please, also explain a little about what type of characters would use those skills.

                        Scenario designer's choice.

                        19) Rivers:
                        a - Inside squares.
                        b - On the edge of squares.
                        c - inside polygons

                        Don't care

                        20) Demo:
                        a - Savegames.
                        b - Map generator.
                        c - Map/scenario editor.
                        d - Technology.
                        e - Improved economics/infrastructure.
                        f - Culture/Ethnicities/Religion (Social model).
                        g - Government/Riots models.
                        h - Tile improvements, resources and settling.
                        i - Diplomacy.
                        j - Trade/merchants.
                        k - Military AI.
                        l - Graphics and GUI update.
                        m - Other. Polygons/microterrain

                        It doesn't matter, as long as they keep improving things.

                        21) Documentation: Which form of game documentation would be more useful to you?
                        a - Manual
                        b - In-game help.
                        c - Online documentation.
                        d - Something else.
                        e - I have a special gift for understanding obscure game models, so I don't need any help.

                        Comment

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