Gui

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Gar, welcome to Clash! And I'm glad to hear you're interested in helping out .

Your idea potentially might fit in with the "newspaper" that we had talked about the current D6 Events window eventually becoming. I am way less sophisticated on conventional GUI approaches than some of the others here... Is there an example on the web that you're aware of that shows this type of thing in action?

BTW if you could post in the gamedev thread just saying some of the positive things you said above, I'd appreciate it! Keeping the thread a bit active helps a bit in recruitment, and helps relieve me having to bump it up once a month or so .

Glad you found us!

Mark


Everyone:

I think it would be useful here to put links to examples of the types of interface widgets you're talking about if you refer to something that isn't extremely common. A set of links like that, when we pull 'em together could serve as a faq for those of us not as steeped in gui approaches. If the models are working, much the better, but even a screenshot is better than nothing IMO.

[topcat_arg]

people:

I Just compiled all the info in the sun page about swing... i made a Hard copy of every page they have in their swing tutorial...

if someone want to have that info off line i can pass it to you... it's a 2.12 Mb. zip... ready to run...

anyway, I was doing some test with dummy data... when i finish it i will send to you, Mark, so you can have a look...

once we finish it, prob. we can put it somewhere so the rest can make some points about it..

Bye...

[RM]

Hello everyone.

A link to a place where you can see a tabbed pane similar to what I had in mind:

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/tabbedpane.html

Another webpage which I have found useful, in my own experimenting with swing is suns visual index to swing components, which is located at

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/components.html

Gary:
I am not sure that it is really such a big drawback that only one pane is visible at the time. When you compare things, you still usually want to compare the same things, for example compare one military unit with another, not compare the unit frame with the detail frame. That is a drawback as much in the current solution as with the use of a tabbed pane.

Besides, a tabbed pane would be larger and could contain more information at the same time, so if it is done in a good way, so it could contain information about almost everything relevant to the information wanted.

I also think a tabbed pane would be great for a more uniform way of getting the information one needs at the time, so one does not have to search in menus to get up the window you want.

But on the other hand a taskbar as Mark suggested, could have almost the same effect. But I think it should not be an aim to be able to have all frames visible at the same time, since that would require them to be rather small. (Still, none of them should be so large that it covers the entire map, if possible to avoid.) Still I think it would look nicer with a tabbed pane.

RM

[colorrr]

I have been away from the boards several days, so I'll catch up a little.
First of all, let me repeat what I have heard from many others that a good interface is crucial to a games success.
The interface determines how the gamer interacts with the game engine, and how much fun he gets from playing it.
You can have an excellent game, but if the interface is bad, people will get frustrated with it and can end up rejecting the game, even though the game engine is a gem.

I agree with gary that the input should be the primary mouse driven, +/- buttons, drop-drag etc. to enter values.
It should be possible to input values by keyboards though, as when time goes by people get tired of repeatedly clicking the mouse to achieve one task and will want to use the keyboard to input numerical values in a more convenient and faster way.

I took a class on user friendly interfaces once, but I have lost the electronic notes I had when I changed my computer at work. Here's what I can remember right now:
- Everytime an action is taken by the computer, a window should show that the computer is in control. That window should always contain task information, a progressbar and a button to cancel the action. The last one can be a bit tricky at times but was deemed a necessity.
- When a task (like build road) is present in the window, it should have an image/icon and optionally a text. The reason that the image has such importance is that an image can say more than a thousand words and it is easier to memorize and 'hook up' an image with that task in our memory. It is also faster and easier for our minds to scan 5 images than scan 5 words or sentences when searching for something. The icons should be simple, clear and functional. No fancy stuff here as that could confuse the user.
- all actions that generate popup windows that contains decisions like f.instance Yes/No, should always have a cancel button. This is in case the user did not want to execute that action or take that decision now.
- of course, a good help should not be far away.

I'll see if I can get my hands on that course material again.

As for making minimized versions of windows, I think we are better without them.
My personal opinion is that the game should show one main window (the content pane Java wise) with a standard basic screen with sections showing the minimal information we deem necessary to play.
It should not include possibilities to move, resize or hide parts of the basic window. When more detail information is necessary it should be provided by pop-up modal windows (these could have tabs), but not in too many levels. Many levels of windows makes for more time lost in opening, closing & managing windows. Drilling down to get to information is a nice feature, but care should be taken to avoid many levels of drilling, especially if the information is important. The same goes for menus. There is also the issue with the amount of tasks/options available in one level. If there are too many at the same level, they should be split up in sub-groups/levels.

We want to avoid the user spending time in things that are not necessary to the game itself (managing windows, fighting the interface, opening up help, navigating menus). Most things should be one or two clicks away. The most important and/or used game functions should be accesible from the main windows itself. That means a toolbar or collection of buttons somewhere on the screen is necessary.


Gary:

About the generators, I have been using VisualAge for Java extensively, which seems to do a good job at generating the runtime code from visual painting. I have not seen it create JInternalFrames, so I don't really understand well that problem.
Maybe when you say generator you have some higher level abstract tools in mind.

Unless you disagree I would like to continue using the visual composition editor of VAJ; it's much easier using a visual editor than having to write the code for everything.
Having said that I take care to make solid layouts. I do not set the sizes of the container components, I use the different layouts in Swing to get the desired result encapsulating components in containers whenever necessary. I have found that if you let Java control the layout it always go fine, no matter the size of the main window, but once you start trying to set sizes manually something will mess up the layout sooner or later.

Jorgen

[colorrr]

About the tabbed panes, I don't think they are no-no . . to a certain extent, that is.
In the basic game window there should be no tabs, nada.
But when an info/action selection window pops up, there could be tabs, why not?

Recently played and golden oldie, RollerCoaster Tycoon. The game has no tabs in its basic window, but several other popup construction windows have tabs. Very functional and actually they are a feature I like a lot.

Jorgen

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Jorgen, thanks for all the detailed info and opinions.

Originally posted by colorrr
As for making minimized versions of windows, I think we are better without them.

The place where I think minimizable windows are Very helpful is in keeping that second-most-vital view or information handy. FE if I am running a civ that is fighting a war on two widely-separated fronts, I want to have the main map on one, and have another map that can be called up with a single click that shows me the other. In this case I avoid lots of scrolling around on the map and lining things up right, potentially each turn, because I can just call up that map that I have lined up perfectly just once. There are many other similar cases. If we can enable this ability with another method that is ok, but I think there must be a way for a player to be able to set up a gui element and access it in one or two clicks.

My personal opinion is that the game should show one main window (the content pane Java wise) with a standard basic screen with sections showing the minimal information we deem necessary to play.

Personally, I like to be able to move things around and resize them depending on what works best for me personally. OTOH it certainly will be easier to sell Clash to most people if it has a slick-looking main screen. I think we'll have some spirited discussions on this one.

[Gar]

Thanks for the welcome, Mark. Going to make my way over to gamedev next to bump my two cents on that thread.

As to the tree structure idea, here is a link to the various things/controls that can be done with tree interface. Any of the graphics can be swapped out (look at the genealogy example.) And there are events generated when navigating the tree.
Java Sun - Tree Examples

And here is a concept with art I tossed together in Paint Shop. I've run the demo breifly but need to get more familiar with it so my random text examples are not totally meaningless:

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Gar:

Originally posted by Gar
Thanks for the welcome, Mark. Going to make my way over to gamedev next to bump my two cents on that thread.

Thanks for the contribution! BTW if you email me, I can send you the recruitment blurb I send out to interested parties. It has some info that should be useful to you.

And here is a concept with art I tossed together in Paint Shop. I've run the demo breifly but need to get more familiar with it so my random text examples are not totally meaningless:

Your concept looks pretty cool based on what is there! I need to think if I like the tree or the way the events box currently handles it (link) better. Would the expanded info stay that way from turn-to-turn (provided the item still existed)?

Lets see what others think about it. I got a "broken image" in the thread, so I had to put in http://www.geocities.com/gregrotz/gui.jpg manually.

[edit] try to get link to work...

[Gar]

The image link problem appears to be geocities way of preventing what I did here which is linking straight to an image and essentially bypassing their bread-winning advertisements. If that link doesn't work, paste it into the nav bar followed by a space.

Ideally the expanded information would stay, not sure how much would be retained naturally via the interface objects and how much would have to be saved/rebuilt. At some level there would need to be code for retention and reorganizing as current turn should bubble to top with drill-down retention/access for previous turns. The level of tree exansion should be retained for everything.

That way if you want to see nitty gritty numbers for all battles, but never for economy you can naturally select it that way based on your interest and next turn you'd see the same level of detail for each type of information generated in that turn.

[colorrr]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
The place where I think minimizable windows are Very helpful is in keeping that second-most-vital view or information handy. FE if I am running a civ that is fighting a war on two widely-separated fronts, I want to have the main map on one, and have another map that can be called up with a single click that shows me the other. In this case I avoid lots of scrolling around on the map and lining things up right, potentially each turn, because I can just call up that map that I have lined up perfectly just once. There are many other similar cases. If we can enable this ability with another method that is ok, but I think there must be a way for a player to be able to set up a gui element and access it in one or two clicks.

I get your point about being able to 'watch' two different placeson the map. Unfortunately this is not very compatible with the idea of a fixed main screen. Maybe a solution is to provide a way to set hotkeys to center on a specific portion of the map,
i.e. Pressing Ctrl-1 set the 1 key to center the map on the current map, you move the map to the other location you want to watch, presses Ctrl-2 to set the 2 key to center on that map location.
Now you can switch between the two using the 1 and 2 keys.

Personally, I like to be able to move things around and resize them depending on what works best for me personally. OTOH it certainly will be easier to sell Clash to most people if it has a slick-looking main screen. I think we'll have some spirited discussions on this one.

I understand what you mean, but how many commercial games have this feature on the elements in their basic screen? On the other hand, that does not mean your idea is bad. Maybe it's just easier for us to make it the first way.

Rodrigo:

I like your idea with the tree control, as you say the user can filter out the information he does not want to see at the moment. We could add color information to the main nodes, like grey when there is no new information, green when new information has arrived etc.


Color

[Mark_Everson]

Ok, Gar, that seems to work pretty well for me. Lets see what some other team members' responses are...

Originally posted by colorrr
I get your point about being able to 'watch' two different placeson the map. Unfortunately this is not very compatible with the idea of a fixed main screen. Maybe a solution is to provide a way to set hotkeys to center on a specific portion of the map,
i.e. Pressing Ctrl-1 set the 1 key to center the map on the current map, you move the map to the other location you want to watch, presses Ctrl-2 to set the 2 key to center on that map location.
Now you can switch between the two using the 1 and 2 keys.

Hi Color:

Problem is its just not a map issue. It may be that a province is on the edge of rebellion and I want to watch its inclination to riot, it may be the case that I am thinking of declaring war on the Habsburgs, and want to know in detail who they have alliances with on a turn-by-turn basis. The list is potentially endless, so there needs to be a solution that essentially minimizes a window IMO. And I think we just need to support this ability one way or another.

[Gary Thomas]

I have got a little behind in commenting on this thread. I will try and catch up now - if I have missed anything, let me know.

Colorr:

About the generators, I have been using VisualAge for Java extensively, which seems to do a good job at generating the runtime code from visual painting. I have not seen it create JInternalFrames, so I don't really understand well that problem.

The only Java generator I am familiar with is JBuilder, which may differ from Visual Age. My experience is that the design system in JBuilder is pretty much useless. However, Visual Age may be better. I would have to see some generated code before forming an opinion. From your comments, it seems likely that your method will be fine. Bear in mind that I am always worried about maintainability.

About the tabbed panes, I don't think they are no-no . . to a certain extent, that is.
In the basic game window there should be no tabs, nada.
But when an info/action selection window pops up, there could be tabs, why not?

I agree completely with this assessment.

Mark:

The place where I think minimizable windows are Very helpful is in keeping that second-most-vital view or information handy. FE if I am running a civ that is fighting a war on two widely-separated fronts, I want to have the main map on one, and have another map that can be called up with a single click that shows me the other.

Ouch. There is no provision for multiple maps at present. When do you want that implemented - please provide the value for x in Demo x.

Minimized windows are not a lot of use if you cannot find the minimized icon.

Personally, I like to be able to move things around and resize them depending on what works best for me personally. OTOH it certainly will be easier to sell Clash to most people if it has a slick-looking main screen.

Not only are both of these objectives realizable, but, I believe, both are essential.

The reason for the resizable and moveable internal frames is that we got a lot of complaints from people whose screen resolutions differed. The basic system is designed for 800x600, but, for bigger screen resolutions the system tries to adjust. Where it can't the user can manually change things, and the program will remember. We tried to make everbody if not exactly happy, at least less disgruntled.

Gar:

And here is a concept with art I tossed together in Paint Shop

The game literature stresses, very strongly, that a game needs its own look and feel. Personally I feel that if that were correct, then MS Word would need its own look and feel, and so forth. The whole point of a standardized windows system is that people are used to it. So, if the game experts are right, then MS and Apple are wrong in implementing their systems. However, some pretty graphics are another thing again, provided that they do not interfere with comprehension by more than, say 0.00000000000001%.

Ideally the expanded information would stay, not sure how much would be retained naturally via the interface objects and how much would have to be saved/rebuilt. At some level there would need to be code for retention and reorganizing as current turn should bubble to top with drill-down retention/access for previous turns. The level of tree exansion should be retained for everything.

Effectively this is already implemented.

Colorr again:

I like your idea with the tree control, as you say the user can filter out the information he does not want to see at the moment.

I am familiar with the Swing components in Java, as well as the Java Tutorial. The JTree class is useful for certain things (I intended to use if for allowing the player to rearrange provinces and military commands) but is not a universal answer. JTrees, badly handled, can be extremely confusing for the user.

Mark encore:

The list is potentially endless, so there needs to be a solution that essentially minimizes a window IMO. And I think we just need to support this ability one way or another.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a taskbar (as I earlier suggested), and when the province got uncomfortably close to revolt, the icon started flashing...

Cheers

[Mark_Everson]

Hiya Gary

Originally posted by Gary Thomas
Ouch. There is no provision for multiple maps at present. When do you want that implemented - please provide the value for x in Demo x.

Not an issue yet, there isn't enough going on in the demos to require it. My guess would be about Demo 10.

The reason for the resizable and moveable internal frames is that we got a lot of complaints from people whose screen resolutions differed. The basic system is designed for 800x600, but, for bigger screen resolutions the system tries to adjust. Where it can't the user can manually change things, and the program will remember. We tried to make everbody if not exactly happy, at least less disgruntled.

I think we will get a Lot of complaints if we keep the windows look long-term though. Perhaps something can be done about the look of 'em without reducing the functionality you cite that's certainly desirable. Windows look is actually Fine by me, but we know I'm way out on the tail of the distribution on that one

Mark encore:
Wouldn't it be nice if we had a taskbar (as I earlier suggested), and when the province got uncomfortably close to revolt, the icon started flashing...

Now that I think about it, for revolt risk we could allow it to be posted in the events, so perhaps it was a bad example of needing minimizable windows! The player would tell the "Internal Minister" to notify them when provinces are above or at X liklihood of revolt FE.

[Gar]

Gary:

The game literature stresses, very strongly, that a game needs its own look and feel. Personally I feel that if that were correct, then MS Word would need its own look and feel, and so forth. The whole point of a standardized windows system is that people are used to it. So, if the game experts are right, then MS and Apple are wrong in implementing their systems. However, some pretty graphics are another thing again, provided that they do not interfere with comprehension by more than, say 0.00000000000001%.

Mostly did the art by way of saying, oh and I do some art; as much as pointing out a conceptual approach to it. Honestly, if the art isn't improving comprehension of an interface it is of questionable value in my opinion, too. Like with skins, though, there is a recognized level of interaction in that interface elements of certain designs should behave in certain ways. Thanks or no thanks to the web, people are more comfortable with finding underlying interface themes.

I once made a version of Hammurabi in Excel, it was pretty cool in principle, but playing a game in Excel felt too much like working at some point and undermined the notion of escaping with the simple game. Often immersion will compete head-to-head with learning curve, but doesn't have to. But playability holds trumps over either.

Some User Interface concepts that I use:
Consistency - similar things Always behave similarly
Complexity scales to ability
Information and decisions are grouped in manageable sizes (the core concept is typically people have 7 short term memory slots, figure one stays in reserve for distractions, and one or two hold an immediate goal, this leaves 4 or 5 things a person can easily/comfortably decide between)

Time to dive into the game some, try to get a better feel for it. Btw, is the interface limited the 256 palette used for the map?

[Gary Thomas]

Time to dive into the game some, try to get a better feel for it. Btw, is the interface limited the 256 palette used for the map?

The map is not limited to a 256 colour palette, though each tile is, but that is only because we have used the gif format, and, in turn that is because we want the transparency feature of gifs. Java maps the individual paletted colours to an rgb system and uses that.

Cheers