The Clash Forum Guestbook

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Dale! Any chance of us joining forces? We can use all the help we can get, and significant numbers of people working together are needed to make a serious stab at a project this ambitious!

[Yoav_Sissman]

Hello.

I'm new here, and haven't really lurked. I'm a studying Computer Science and Accounting and hope to be actively involved in this great project as much as my time limits allows.

I think that we are actually creating what might yet be an important milestone in civ management style games. This is largely due to the amateuristic fashion of the work (in the good sense), which results in pretty much designing the models from scratch, borrowing only ideas from other games but not the outdated and unrealistic engines.

As for Richard's survey, I rather not answer the questions right away in this general thread. In any case several of them concern cost effectiveness issues that will ultimately require more careful consideration then the one I can supply as a gaming consumer expressing his preferences.

[KrikkitOne]

1. The RPG sounds good, provided there is leakage/loss (knowledge/experience leaking from one civ to another, or being lost from a civ depending on the presence/absence of suitable communication)

2. Dynamic ecology Good

3. well the population needs to be differentiated, but I think age differences can suitably be modeled by other factors (high birthrate meaning more demand/need for infant vs. gerontological health care for example)

4. Cube would be best, and Cylinder next best (due to the low importance of polar regions.) Donut should be avoided, as it is just bad [I'm assuming cylinder is the standadard Civ type map, rather than actually having the polar regions]

5. Given that Turns are where you make your decisions, Then I would hope for a more Operational mode, this makes it seem more realistic, in a turn you don't tend to say move here, but more conquer this country, hold this territory.

A) probably at least 8 or so

B) Nobility/Ruling, Rich, Middle Class, Poor, Clergy/Intelligentsia/Media, Military, Slaves

C) YES the player should have less power in a less autocratic government

D) not as a "special" but if the potential can be worked in...all you need is a mobile population (easy) and a mobile "capital".

E) Slightly more than real life, but not much.

F) yes disasters diseases are good, as long as Human players are given a bit of an advantage in their early starting position (not on top of a volcano, or on a region with no horses, ala Native Americans)

G) local variations in known technology, Definitely, especially for decentralized empires, although in many respects that should be minor.

H) Ethincities definitely (I'd prefer one with VERY slowly fluctuatable ethnicities, and a "technically" homogeneous population, but "cultural" characteristics are needed, of course their possible change is the desired thing)

I) Internal struggles should be the heart of any good empire builder (of course external struggles would be the lungs)

J) I would like it to be able to model historical situations, but it should not model them ruthlessly (ie If a game is at the point where it looks exactly like Earth 1935, 15 years later it Could plausibly, but not likely look exactly like Earth 1950, due to randomness and player decisions)...so probably 9

K) Version 2.0 definitely (although it should of course go a little bit beyond today's tech)

L) Pirates and such should hopefully be modelable in the game directly



A suggestion for helping turn length problems in general (including the problem of shorter turn lengths in more modern times.)
Allow the player to enter the game in various Epochs (based on what the overall level of technology/social organization is)
for example
Nomads (~8000 BC)
City-States-Standard opening (~4000 BC)
Empires (~1000 BC)
World Powers (~1500 AD)

Whenever a player reached sufficient development to be considered the "next level" that would be a "do you want to stop now?" point. The Biggest problem would be allowing a player to start late, and creating a map for them. But that would also allow one to say that the whole 4000-1000 BC period is 1 game (allowing shorter turn lengths and more time spent on the ancient period)

(Yeah I know its probably been suggested and turned down, but wanted to put the idea out)

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for the input KrikkitOne!

[yin26]

I just wanted to send in a word or two of support for you guys. I've basically given up on Civ3 and now am looking for the reviews of MOO3 to come out. In the mean-time, I have reinstalled and am enjoying EU.

In other words, if MOO3 bombs, I might see you guys as potential saviors of the genre...at which point I'll be glad to come here and bother you on a regular basis.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Yin, good to hear from you!

Yeah, I've basically given up on Civ3 (except possibly MP) too. It almost certainly having the same lame AI as civ2 is my biggest problem. Hopefully MOO3 might be worthwhile.

Please do give us a closer look when you get sick of EU

[Mikael]

Hey,

I too have my doubts on Civ3. I don't like the way they'll handle borders. I mean, if Canada starts building more museums, does that mean they'll get Wisconsin for free from the US? Ridiculous. It seems to me that Firaxis has completely confused the concept of civilisations and nations.

Anyway, I have great hope for Clash of Civs. Unfortunately I'm no coder and don't think I can help at this stage... Just a couple of questions:
will CoC (horrible acronym!) handle strategic resources better than Civ2? I read the Economics model and it seems to me that resources will only give a bonus to whoever has them. Wouldn't it be more realistic to use the Civ3 approach(at least one thing is promising in this game) and make them a prerequisite for certain units, technologies, or infrastructure, etc.? For example, I don't see how you could develop horseriding without horses in your territory, or build cars without oil. IIRC this was discussed some time ago under the technology thread but I have no idea what's happened to that concept.

Oh, I guess I'll also fill in the virtual questionnaire:

A/ number of classes: try to model as many as possible without making the game overly complex. Just the essential ones. 5-7 might be good.

B/what classes? well, for instance: -clergy.
-military.
-aristocracy.
-workers.(also includes peasants.)
-merchants. They got the bucks.
-educated class(writers, teachers, academic, scientists...) not very rich but educated.
-slaves.

C/ I'm all for increased realism. I don't want godlike power all the time, like in the Civ series.

D/yeah nomadic civs might be fun. Give it a try.

E/stability of empires over time: not stable at all!!! have civil wars, genocides, lose control of parts of the empire, clashes between cultures, between classes, etc.

F/yep, diseases and disasters should be in as an option at least. Adds realism.

G/of course, especially in the ancient times, techs shouldn't be the same everywhere in the civ. for instance, those that don't have access to iron shouldn't know how to build, say, legions.

H/no, no, ethnicities are a must.

I/yes, I do. this is similar to point E.

J/ I care about historical accuracy 80%.

L/yeah, pirates and stuff should be in. Kinda like the barbarians in Civ2, but maybe more powerful and less random.

I hope this doesn't come in too late.

[Mikael]

Here go the next questions:

1) We currently have the option to make two tech systems. One of them is the standard Civ2/Starcraft prerequisite based system. The other is structured more like an RPG character building system, where the abilities of the civ develop continuously over time as the civ gains experience doing things. Which system do you think would be more fun?

*RPG definitely.*

2) We are considering adding a detailed ecology model that changes the landscape in realistic ways, both naturally and in response to player and AI civ actions. Do you think this would be fun, or would you prefer a stable environment that you don't have to worry about?

*Add it in.*

3) How much detail do you want in the population model? Do you think it would add to the game if we modelled different ages seperately, or would you prefer to have an undifferentiated population mass?

*Hmm...not sure if ages are that important. If you can do it well, then go ahead, if it causes problems, don't care about it.*

4) What kind of map do you prefer? Would you like a cylander, donut, cube structure, or some other structure?

*Donut*.

5) How much detail do you want in the military movements? Do you like moving units around the squares yourself, or would you like the option of a large scale operational combat system like the one in Axis and Allies?

*A large scale operational combat system would be more realistic. Perhaps an option for tactical combat should be in, not sure.*

[Mikael]

Heh, and now onto LGJ's questions


1a. For the Wonders & Achievements what type of things would you like to see, espically in the use of achievements that don't have things to do with buildings such as crossing the world for the first time.

*not sure I really care, do whatever u feel is better*.

1b. Also do plan to play a more abstract or more historical model?

*more historical, by all means!!*

2a. Do you like the idea of dynasties?

*I do*.

2b. If so, do you want the player to have a historical dynasty for himself instead of necessarily being this immortal being as in Civ I/II? (note even if the dynasty collapsed and a new one took over, you'd be in control, but with differnt power political power level and structure maybe)

*Interesting, but having the player change personality all of a sudden is a bit strange. I have a feeling the ruler/president/king is *you*, for eternity, and that should be the only gamey element of any civ game*.

2c. If you want dynasties, how would you like things to be handled in rebublics, democracies or other non-dynastical countries, esp. for ruling dynasties?

*When there are elections there shouldn't be dynasties, no? Sounds logical*.

2d. Again if you like dynasties, do you want them for every character possible? Only ones that have governmental jobs? Only specific types of jobs? Or something else?

*Special characters, dynasties, for any job except ruler*.

3a. How much do you want the character model to be apart of the model? I'm really asking how integrated you want it with the rest of the game. Do you see it as an add-on moreso or a intergral part of the game or sometwhere inbetween and if so, where?

*More of an integrated part*.

3b. Finally, what characteristic should be used for characters? (Sorry, i'll take up some space listing what is currently used right now. Tell me if you like it and if not what you would change/delete/add:

Physical Traits Social Traits
--------------------- -----------------
Status Intuition
Alignment Willpower
Reputation Charisma
Education

Status - Represents the social level a character is at. 1 is usually slave or serf or in modern times, a bum. 10 is a journeyman craftsperson or in modern times, a factory worker. 20 is the elite aristocracy or extremely influential people. In modern times these would be rulers of countries, superstars, CEOs of huge corporations like Microsoft. This also represents their relative wealth or potential wealth for the very near future. As the character is played, this may go up or down somewhat.

Alignment - This represents the way the character's actions are viewed by society in general as a whole. This doesn't say a character is good or bad, only the way other people in general see him/her as. This range goes from -10 though 10. -1, 0 and 1 are considered neutral and all characters start out with one of those stats. Beyond that is when people start to take notice of their actions. Also when dealing with characters with very high/low alignments they will act differently and will not do certain jobs. Once a character is no longer considered neutral, they cannot get out of that alignment bracket, though they can go up and down within it.

Reputation - This is the most volatile of all the Traits. All characters who don't come from a dynasty start off with a reputation of 1. Those that come from dynasty's start off 1 lower than their parent's reputation. All Radicals (explained later) will have a minimum of 10. This trait measures how well a character is know, not liked. The higher the reputation, the more he's known and the more able u are to hire him if he's outside your civ. However, higher reputations also require more lucrative offers (explained below). Reputation is increased and decreased in many ways, namely as time passes (reputation tends toward shifting 7 if no other modifiers are out there. Other things that can raise it; when the character is hired, were successful at a job, been promoted, very few in that profession. Some that could lower; fired from a office, overthrown, unsuccessful. This is by far incomplete and probably highly inaccurate, but I hope you get the idea.

Intuition - This represents a character's instincts, common sense, perception and daily living knowledge. Those with high intuitions usually are able to think fast (although not necessarily correctly). Low intuition doesn't mean that someone's dumb, it means they might be inexperienced or somewhat mentally imbalanced. Intuition like education will probably not change that much, but if so will only go up and by not more than 2.

Willpower - This is the drive for success of a person, there ability to resist charismatic leaders (and resist being hired) and the ability to be efficient. Those with high willpower will be risk takers, adventurous or dominant in political field. Strong will powered people are harder to hire, but are also good if you manage to get one. All radicals will have a minimum of 10 for their willpower.

Charisma - This is a character's ability to sway a person, group or populace through his speaking and actions. This character is naturally gifted (or handicapped) in this area and will usually make good in politics or religion. Super charismatic people are known to cause turmoil throughout history.

Education - This is basically book knowledge and the use of it. Those of less than 5 are
considered illiterate while those of 17+ are usually considered geniuses. This stat will probably not change, but if so, will only go up and not by more than 2.


*I like that, fine by me. Or maybe I'm just too lazy to be negative*.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Mikael:

Thanks for all the survey responses! Way back on the top one, you said you don't see how to help. Well if you have the time you can go deeper into models you feel are of interest and comment on what they have that may not feel right or be fun. Also, there has been relatively little discussion on Diplomacy for a long time. If you were interested in drafting up an approach after reading what's in the older Dip threads, that would be a useful contribution.

-Mark

[Edit] Mikael's comments on the Diplomacy model have become the new Diplomacy V2 thread. So I have removed them from here.

-the MGT

[Krum]

I've been keeping an eye on the Clash project since summer 2000, when I was looking for Civ and found Apoyton. I had already given up on civ3, and when I saw alternative civs, clash and started reading the modles -- and got excited about it right away . So now all my gaming hopes are MoO3, Eu2 and Clash.

Anyway, do you still want to get answers to those questions?

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Krum:

Yep, answering the questions is still of use to us! Or if you are more interested in focused areas of the game, take a deep dive into those model and let us know what you think.

[Krum]

Well, I'll answer the questions first.
[list=1][*] The RPG-like system. I like the idea of every tech increasing/decreasing on a scale, little control by the player (maybe increasing in the later stages?), technology exchange between civilizations when right conditions are met, seperation the technology in three levels.
[*] A big YES, i love the idea and the ecology model. I want deforestation, pollution and moving rivers
[*] If you think modeling different ages seperately is nessesary, do it. I think it would help for example when there is a population boom, and when it ends there is a parge percentage of old people, who can't perform hard physical albour, also societies with more young people are more open to new ideas.
[*] Of course, the best thing would be a sphere. A cube, could work, maybe with an option to view it from one of the peaks? I have this idea to warp the three sides in a way it would seem you're looking at a flat surface. I just have trouble imagining it From what I read, the AI needs a cylinder anyway... Im just worried by the fact that in Mercator there is much distortion. If you could make it in a way distance and area are somewhat accurate, it's fine.
[*] I prefer managing armies rather than units. I'll need to read more about the military model...
[/list=1]
[list=A]
[*] 4-6 clsses.
[*] Upper class, Lower class, Religious class, Military class; Bureaucratic class. Maybe Middle class too, but I don't see it playng a large role until modern times (but then, the same goes for Bureaucratic class). Maybe Middle class and Bureaucratic appearing when some preset conditions are met.
[*] Maybe a little more control than the "typical" ruler, and smaller power in more liberal systems of course.
[*] I'd like to be able to play a nomadic civ, also i think they shouldn't be differrent than normal civ. So you can have any degree of nomadism, which can change in either direction. Nomads -- very important. You can't even try to simulate ancient and early medieval history without nomads.
[*] It should depend on the style of the player, if he gets expansionistic, empire gets more unstable and vice versa. China is isolationist, and has survived for thousands of years.
[*] Diseases and disasters, yes. Maybe typical for the diven square, like tsunami in Japan, ect, is very important IMO. Maybe it could have an influence on the type of tech?
[*] Maybe, but it might not be nessesary as the less developed provinces probably wouldn't be able to implement advanced technology anyway. But it won't be bad to have it, as an effect of less educational/scientific infrastructure & lack of transport and communication with the provinces that are ahead in tech.
[*] Ethnicities, absolutely.
[*] I think I'd like internal struggle maybe even more than struggle between civs.
[*] I don't want it to be nessesary to go through the stages the RL history has gone, but at the same time I'd like them to be possible.
[*] Don't care about fantasy, sci-fi as a nice addition, future tech to the level that you think COULD have been achieved in 2000.
[*] I'd like to see pirates, but even more important freelance armies, that might have ships (pirates), that could be bandits or looking to be hired, or both, maybe depending on leader personality.
[/list=A]

I just downloaded Demo5, I can't wait to try it.

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for the feedback Krum!

[Krum]

Wow, just count how many times i used "maybe"...

... nothing to see here.