Map Graphics Thread, Part II

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Fiera:

We could really use an alpha version of the roads. As Gary said above the spec is:

Eight little road overlays (from the centre to each of the eight directions).

I expect we could use a placeholder in as little as a few days. Just a first shot would be ok, since speed is more important than quality at this point. Once the placeholders are there, then we could discuss at more length how to best do more permanent ones. A better version could then be put into demo 5.1 just before it comes out. The best part is you'll see them in a demo in maybe a few weeks

[axi]

Ah, province borders, that's a good idea. Thinner than the civ borders, do you think?

Or intermittent line like in civ3?

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[Gary Thomas]

Sorry, coder's privilege - no funny borders. Ordinary ones are bad enough, and other options will further clutter an already intolerably messy map.

When I spoke about borders, I actually meant province borders. I should be pretty clear how the provinces work from this. I also intend to add hints (right click on map) which will give a small bit of detail about a square. And finally, a switchable "Show names" option to write civ, province and city names on the map.

Cheers

[Fiera]

Mark, I will try something for the roads ASAP. I must say I did a first try some months ago, before summer, and wasn't very satisfied with the result, but since you're not looking for something definitive now, it shouldn't be that hard.

Re my email account, yes, jgv@edinoesis.com is my main account. It's only that I can't check it that often sometimes.

[Gary Thomas]

Anything happening here?

Cheers

[Gary Thomas]

I last posted something here two months ago, and the thread has been dormant since then. In my view this area is the most urgent of all in the entire Clash system. The game is starting to take shape, but the graphics are lagging far behind.

In particular, coasts and proper roads.

However, there are other areas:

Agricultural lands
Irrigated land
Decent rough terrain
Better hills

Cheers

[sas]

The game looks kind of weird without a coast , and roads is a MUST. This really should be looked into. If anyone have played Civ3 with the Snoopy graphics modpack you will see what i think we should aspire to implement in Clash. If we can get the graphics up to that level, we should have something workable.

-Stian-

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Stian, an official welcome to the project!

I think some roads would be a great place for you to start! Its something that you can do quickly, and it will get you into the current graphics spec. And after that maybe some rivers or coastlines? Lets see what the group thinks.

Can you post a screen grab of the modpack you like showing the features you think are most important? Then we can all check it out.

Great having you in the group!

[sas]

Roads and coast

I've made a set of roads i hope we can use for now. They dont look good, but they should work. I will make them look more real later on.

Check them out :

http://home.broadpark.no/~sastokke/roads.gif

Allso, here is two pictures of the modpack i was talking about. I think the coasts look great in this mod and hopefully i can make something simmilar.

http://home.broadpark.no/~sastokke/snoopyterrain.jpg

http://home.broadpark.no/~sastokke/coast.jpg

Comments ?

-Stian-

[LDiCesare]

Hi Stian,
I think the coasts look good, except they seem to mingle badly with the forest graphics.
If you have any ideas for rivers, and whether they should go in the middle of the squares or on the edges, please let us know.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Stian:

I like your road concept a lot! It will add some unique flavor to the maps. I'm also a little worried how it will work for like forested tiles given that there is a lot of complexity in the roads we'd have to work around. Another potential issue is that a city image, if appropriate will go at the center, and some of your roads might not look like they 'go into' the city. Lets see what others think in general before getting into details.

In terms of the specific implementation We'll need to get them into the tranparent Gif format (89a is the spec I think, but it might be 87a). I hope you've got a program that supports that format, if not you can probably find one. Also as now supported in the code roads are drawn by segment. So a lookup table would need to be created for your approach to work. But neither of those are big issues.

If you take your demo 6 jar file, and open it in winzip, you can extract the current road tiles to see the spec. They are in the \tiles directory and have names like RoadNW.gif. Once you get to the stage where you have the roads in transparent gif format, and match the road position in our files now (there is a little excess space at the top of the tile, beyond the diamond) you can put your matching ones in by hand into the .jar file replacing the standard ones, and see how they look yourself! In the long run if we accept your road concept we'd probably handle them in a whole sheet, just as you put them up.

I like the coasts on the map you show too! It would be great to have something like that. The rivers look pretty good too.

Great Start

-Mark

[sas]

Thanks for the comments !

In reply to the suggestions/comments:

I'm also a little worried how it will work for like forested tiles given that there is a lot of complexity in the roads we'd have to work around.

Well, I partly agree with you Mark. But if the color of the roads are easy to see in contrast to the background, it shouldn't be a problem. Here's an example:

some of your roads might not look like they 'go into' the city

Good point Mark ! I was a bit uncertain about that one, and its something that can be fixed easily. Although it also depends on the icon size of the city. If its big compared to the square, it might not prove a problem after all.

We'll need to get them into the transparent Gif format

No problem

a lookup table would need to be created for your approach to work

Well, my reason for this approach to making graphics is due to the fact that Civ2 used this method, so I'm used to this approach. In my opinion this is the best way for making graphics (terrain and units). It saves a lot of time in the long run, and is incredible easy to use and change. Also I think it's easier when we're making the mapgenerator....

If you have any ideas for rivers

I like having the rivers in the middle of the squares. Just my personal opinion. And if we plan to have certain boats with the capability to travel on rivers, its also more practical.

-Stian-

[Gary Thomas]

The way it works at present is that there are eight road segments which lead to the centre of the square. The code is arranged that way, and changing it to cover the 2⁸ combinations is a coding task that will get a rather low priority. So, at least for the moment, we are stuck with the eight segment system.

The roads in question are actually very high grade military roads, and are always paved. So maybe grey is a better choice of colour.

On the question of coasts, if individual tiles are used for each combination, I have no problem with it, but it will take 2⁸ times the number of distinct landforms that are in use. By my count, that is around 1500 tiles. Can you handle that sort of workload, Stian?

The approach that I intended to use was by means of four overlays, representing the four sides (and ignoring the corners). Even if this is multiplied by 6 landforms, the number is manageable.

The question of rivers in squares or along the edges has been discussed extensively in another thread. The only substantial argument in favour of in-square rivers is the movement along rivers issue. The significant problem with in-square rivers is that roads will cover them up, or interfere with their appearance. I have always been a strong proponent of edge rivers (as used in Civ3!) mainly because of the barrier effect in combat, and the boundary effect for political control. I also once had an (unfulfilled) ambition to be a civil engineer - I like the possibility of bridges.

The point here is that narrow coast overlays could also be used for edge rivers.

Until Stian showed up, I had intended to do these myself, but I would rather spend my time on the code.

Cheers

[Gary Thomas]

At least at present we do have roads. We don't have cultivated land, tundra or the equivalent of the plain tile of Civ. Although we do have a rough terrain tile, it is awful (I know, I did it). The hill one is pretty bad too. The visual appeal of fixing these is probably higher than that of fixing roads.

Then there are those coasts...

Cheers

[axi]

I'm just posting to say that I totally agree with Gary on the rivers-on-side-of-square issue. I also feel that we do not need different coastlines for different landmasses; didn't we once say that the color of a tile depends on it's vegetation/ type of soil/snow coverage and not on it's topography (plains/hills/mountains) and that it will be an overlay over it? What we need is different types of coasts: shallow_beach/normal_coast/rocky_coast/cliff. They will inherit the color of their respective tile if necessary (I assume that the overlays will be INSIDE the tile and not outside, else we can't have rivers).

sas's solution on the road issue makes roads look more realistic, but it will be really funny to see them changing shape over time.

Paved roads were the exception, even in Roman times. They were to be found only in highly populated areas of the Roman empire. The used gravel for most of their roads. We will just have to have different levels of roads/railroads, like we originally intended.