Wonders and their wanna-bes

[Yakopepper]

First off I’d like to state my position on Wonders. I think the original 7 Wonders shouldbe included somehow in the game. And the Great Wall of China isnt one. Any civ shouldbe able to produce a massive wall across the countryside.

~A Wonder is something that IS BUILT, not accomplished or funded. It should be
something that was considered a great feat at the time it was done. But saying that, the
Great Wall was a great feat too.

~There should not be nearly as many Wonders as there was in CivII.

~Wonders should generally benefit education, health, trade, happiness, science, military
morale, military training and such.

~It should never eliminate the need for certain city improvement within each city.

~There should be a medium between city improvement and Wonders. Something maybe
called civ improvements. These should cost money(and plenty of it, not production.
Something each civ can build only one of.

~Example from civII: Each civ must fund the Manhatten project(or something like it) before producing Nuclear weopons. Anyone should be able to produce a Great Wall across their countryside. Each civ should be able to fund a trip arould the world--Darwins Voyage.
And if there is some sort of space exporation, each civ needs to fund the Apollo
program(or something like it) to benefit from it. And just this week China announce they
were sending a man into space.

~Wonders and “Civ improvements” that have to do with the ocean(Lighthouse, Darwins
Voyage, Mgellans Expedition) would have to be built in providences that have access to
the ocean.

~There should be more “Civ improvements” than Wonders.

~Once you’ve started building a Wonder you cannot change it to another. If you do you
lose all production. (You think that once all but the top ten rows of the pyramids were
done you could have the colossus build the next year?)

~You can, however, halt the production for a certain number of turns without penlty. If you have half the pyramids done and decide to halt it because the city is threatend, you still have half the pyramids done when you comeback, right? After the time period is up(you should be warned too) you lose all production. And the Wonder is now availible to all other civs(who have the tech of course.)

~This idea should apply to city improvements too. Except you wont have a time limit to
continue production. If I have half a library done and decide to build a University, I build the University from scratch, and finish the library from where I left it. I do realize that a lot of this maybe done by the AI, but I still had to say it.

~This would eliminate the cheats of building a Wonder just to get the prodction to build
another Wonder of a tech the civ knows nothing of.

~I dont consider any of the Wonders from CTP to be actual Wonders and dont think any
should be. However, some could be possible be “Civ improvements.”

I'd sure like to hear some feedback(praise or critize) on this.
Daniel

[Mark_Everson]

Daniel:

Sounds generally reasonable to me... Provinces in Clash don't have monolitic improvements, things can be built gradually. I don't have any big objection to wonders in general. Just 'magical' ones like Leo's. Your civ-level wonders sound ok. They could either be a great feature or just clutter up the game... I'm not sure about my opinion as to which of the two it'll be yet

[roquijad]

A forgotten thread, it seems.

I'd like to give it new life first summarizing what I've found about wonders in clash forums. It's not much, though:

1. Clash team is not sure yet about including wonders.
2. Wonders shouldn't be as much as in civ2
3. Ws should be buildings and not projects/achievments like Leo's.
4. They may have an effect on national pride, happiness and trade.
5. Clash economic model works not with particular buildings, but with "an infrastructure" level.
6. The player should be able to customize wonder's effects rather than choosing a wonder with some predefined effect.
7. Some players like wonders from world history to be explicitly included, while others prefer "abstract" wonders.
8. Construction of wonders could be halted in order to solve present problems and then continue building them without losing what has been already made.
9. Changing wonders while being built seems ugly and non-realistic.
10. Manurein in his social model gives us his view on wonders:

The idea is to allow the ruler to build " special " structures, that are mainly real buildings (no " Cure for Cancer " wonder), that are not forecasted by the game but rather shaped by the player, and that effects on different models of Clash depending on the type of structure that is built ; in no way, a wonder is unique.
Actually, a wonder is an architectural structure that building is decided by the ruler (and the economic model), and that is a really special construction. It takes extra resources to be built, but one it is built it appears on the map, and it gives advantages to its owner. There may be many kinds of wonders. For example, it may be a great temple. The size of the temple is decided by the ruler (and thus the extra resources it requires, eventually the time it takes to be built). Once it is built, the people will enjoy it, giving more power to the RC, giving more faith to the people. Also, the province that holds it will see its rate for purpose of migration increase. Over time, the effect of a wonder may lower (when the people are less influenced by religion, the great temple will be of less importance) ; also, a wonder may have economic effects, such as favoring tourism in this province. There may also be another effect : if there is a tech called " archeology ", then an ancient wonder that has no more effect could be rediscovered and generate trade in modern times, through tourism. [...]


That's all I've found about Ws. My own opinion goes in the next post.

Rodrigo

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Rodrigo:

Thanks for taking this on

I would contest the point about how wonders Must be buildings. Any Achievement should do IMO. Manhattan Project and Cure for Cancer are Excellent choices in my view.

I think wonders should not have their results through Magic like Leo's in Civ2. Or, as you say be disproportionately powerful If only one civ could have 'em.

Other than that, the stuff in the summary isn't unreasonable, IMO. Waiting to hear your take on it

[roquijad]

My view of WW:
1)WW are buildings beyond what we're used to. Magnificent structures that most of all, amaze us for their greatness and beaty. Also, they (or some of them, really) had some particular use in the past, like the Oracle in Greece. So, you have to model both, attractivness and use of it.
2)Ws are just the extreme case of something else, like a temple in the case of the Oracle. There were a lot of oracles in greece, but only one qualified for wonder of the world, because of greatness and importance. Or the pyramids. There are a lot of pyramids in egypt for they were royal tombs, but only 3 are THE pyramids.
3)About attractivness, let's take FE present Paris. It holds no wonder, but it's considered one of the most beatiful cities in the world attracting $$$ in tourism and with a powerful effect on inmigration. It'd be fair to compare Paris to ancient Babylon with its hanging gardens, since the effect is much the same: a beatiful place to live, encourgaing national pride, happiness and trade (since inmigration makes it a big market, an then a profitable one).

My proposal for WW:
In mark's econ model the people as well as the ruler invest in some areas like agriculture. Suppose your civ has spent some great amount of $ in one of these areas. If a certain (high) limit has been reached, you earn a world wonder and it's specific to the area. So, if a lot of money have been spent on temples, you earn the oracle, FE. At that moment, the city or province where it has been "built" gains a bonus for inmigration (at the migration model) and a bonus for religous happiness (social model). The trade bonus comes (or eventually will come) alone since migration will bring it and happiness could be related to people's productivity. Notice that earning a wonder may be seeked by the ruler just spending lots of money in the area. Notice too that this method helps modeling the effect of stopping wonder construction for the moment and continue it later since no waste of $ takes place at each area. Also, there's no need of wonder being a real historic one and this can be left as an option to some players. Also, wonders are no longer unique. A religious wonder may exist in a civ, but other can do the same. Notice as well that ruler's choice of area to invest in is in fact a choice of what kind of wonder you want and the type of effects it'll bring.
It'd be necessary to include an investment area such as "city beautification" where wonders like HG can exist. On the other side, some areas won't never lead to a wonder, like "fishing".

The main problem I see in the above proposal is that the normal expendeture on each area will make every province have a wonder, eventually. To solve this, it'd be maybe useful to check "investment surplus", like "how much is needed and how much is spent".

Rodrigo

[roquijad]

My view of WW:
1)WW are buildings beyond what we're used to. Magnificent structures that most of all, amaze us for their greatness and beaty. Also, they (or some of them, really) had some particular use in the past, like the Oracle in Greece. So, you have to model both, attractivness and use of it.
2)Ws are just the extreme case of something else, like a temple in the case of the Oracle. There were a lot of oracles in greece, but only one qualified for wonder of the world, because of greatness and importance. Or the pyramids. There are a lot of pyramids in egypt for they were royal tombs, but only 3 are THE pyramids.
3)About attractivness, let's take FE present Paris. It holds no wonder, but it's considered one of the most beatiful cities in the world attracting $$$ in tourism and with a powerful effect on inmigration. It'd be fair to compare Paris to ancient Babylon with its hanging gardens, since the effect is much the same: a beatiful place to live, encourgaing national pride, happiness and trade (since inmigration makes it a big market, an then a profitable one).

My proposal for WW:
In mark's econ model the people as well as the ruler invest in some areas like agriculture. Suppose your civ has spent some great amount of $ in one of these areas. If a certain (high) limit has been reached, you earn a world wonder and it's specific to the area. So, if a lot of money have been spent on temples, you earn the oracle, FE. At that moment, the city or province where it has been "built" gains a bonus for inmigration (at the migration model) and a bonus for religous happiness (social model). The trade bonus comes (or eventually will come) alone since migration will bring it and happiness could be related to people's productivity. Notice that earning a wonder may be seeked by the ruler just spending lots of money in the area. Notice too that this method helps modeling the effect of stopping wonder construction for the moment and continue it later since no waste of $ takes place at each area. Also, there's no need of wonder being a real historic one and this can be left as an option to some players. Also, wonders are no longer unique. A religious wonder may exist in a civ, but other can do the same. Notice as well that ruler's choice of area to invest in is in fact a choice of what kind of wonder you want and the type of effects it'll bring.
It'd be necessary to include an investment area such as "city beautification" where wonders like HG can exist. On the other side, some areas won't never lead to a wonder, like "fishing".

The main problem I see in the above proposal is that the normal expendeture on each area will make every province have a wonder, eventually. To solve this, it'd be maybe useful to check "investment surplus", like "how much is needed and how much is spent".

Rodrigo

[Kanzid Stonebreath]

Firstly I personally would say that Paris does have a wonder that is the 'Eiffel Tower'

Secondly I would agree with what Mark said, that projects such as the cure for cancer that would be major achievements should be modeled as some kind of wonder.

[Lord God Jinnai]

The only 2 i think from modern times that would make it would be the manhatton project and apollo program. The reason why is because these had vast impacts and/or achievements. With the MP we created a the first city destroyer weapon and could harness the power of the atom. With the Apollo program we sent the first person to another celestial object and returned him safely home (Actually though i'd prob list the russian achievement of sending the first man in space and returning them home safely before the apollo program). The cure for cancer really doesn't say much since its only 1 type of disease (in general) and it isn't the first disease we've wiped out (smallpox was, but u don't see a wonder for that?)

[Mark_Everson]

I'd like to amplify one thing Rodrigo said...
That a civ that goes further than usual in a particular area could qualify for a wonder. I think anything we can do that will turn W building into a Race will get the adrenaline flowing for the player! This came up on the Old Forum too. First one to reach a certain threshold either in 'building' or 'education' or 'high culture' or that was 'best in the world' at something could qualify. Some would be permanent (or last a long time) others, like best in education, could be transitory if the civ were overtaken by another. Initially these prizes would be handed out for each area of the world, but when things become truly global the competition would be global also.

You can see that OLD wonders discussion if you go to the web site, follow Forums - Old Forum and scroll about 1/2 way down the page. The discussion is part of the thread "Victory Conditions?"

We Need Factors to give Clash that Just ONE More Turn draw. I think this idea if well-done can be a Big one of these.


LGJ:

Ok, good point on Cure for Cancer, hasn't been done Anyway

[Yakopepper]

First off, one should not benefit from anothers achievement. This was a major mistake in civII. I build the Manhatten project and everyone can now build nukes.
?????????
How'd they get the tech to build nukes? Same with the Apollo program. I alone should benefit from it if I were fortunate enough to build it first.

These 2(Man. Project and Apollo Prog.), and others which are of no significants right now, should be in another class. Something each civ can build only one of.

You can have a seperate group of achievements listed out for each civ to achieve. These would not be neccessary for the civ too build, but act as an enhancer to a specific field of the game.

And as for earning wonders, that sounds OK to me. But it sounds like it may get too cluttered or overused. Too many repeats possibly. unless you put limits on them or something.

Daniel

[roquijad]

About projects (modern civ2 wonders): I don't see them as being wonders since they're only tech advances. We could discuss hours about what types of adv are real turning points and could deserve to be called wonders. Also, I think an attrb of wonders is that they're geo-specific, located at a place, so you must capture the city where the wonder is to have it. Techs have the attrb of being transferible, so if you made it to the moon, I can learn from you and then do it by myself.... In that view, it'd be maybe more important to introduce a pride-value in techs, so some techs give the nation that first discovered them a pride that make people of that nationality more happines.
Anyway, if you're so very interested in having projects as wonders, it's alright with me.

About mark's remark, I agree that one good thing about wonders is that they put the player in a position where he/she must compete, which is the main goal of the game. Wonders look like an important feature in the game regardless of implementation or their role in reproducing history.

Rodrigo

[roquijad]

Daniel:
I guess setting the investment goal high enough you can control how many wonders can be in a game. Anyway, it's important to be possible for a lot of cities/provinces to have great buildings not necessarily considered wonders that can act as wonders increasing pride/happiness/migration (and therefore trade also). Take FE:
-Aztec pyramids
-Paris
-Rome
-Forbiden city (china)
-Golden Gate, San Francisco.
-etc

So, wonders really are just extreme cases of city improvements. In those cases, bonuses are real big.

I mentioned in some other forum another form of geo-specific achievments that I'd like to introduce here for you to comment: Some events that happen in a certain location are thereafter remembered and those places are then highly attractive for some groups of people. Take for instance the holy land in Israel. Not only a source of tourism nowdays, also a place where thousands have gone to just to be there, keeping Jerusalem an important city until now. Holy land also was the main reason for european crusaders to try invading palestine, since religious and political control of that place was highly desireble. And all beacuse Christ lived there! Mecca is much the same. In clash, then, it'd be nice if the game marks some cities after some events giving it a value like wonders.
what do you think?

[Yakopepper]

Sounds good to me.

Daniel

[johnmcd]

I bumped a year long discussion on modern wonders on the Civ II general/ community area in case anyone wants to check that out, or you could click on the link http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HT...tml?date=18:34
Some of it seems relevant and some of it is just nonsense.

[Paul Crocker]

Yakopepper (I'd LOVE to know where THAT handle came from ): I really disagree with the statement that other civs benefiting from a wonder is "wrong". History has proven that statement incorrect. I'll use that Manhatten Project as an example. Before it was completed, nobody even knew if the goals of the M.P. were attainable, let alone did they know the correct path that the research should take. Once the American scientists split the atom, they let the proverbial genie out of the bottle. It didn't take very long for other scientists to duplicate their work, since they then know the correct path to take - in general terms. Sure, they still had to work out the details (that's what some of the 3rd world scientists are working out today with their nukes, the rest just lack certain equipment). Once learned, it's difficult to unlearn. Espionage certainly played a part in this, but not entirely. In fact, many historians think today that if it had not been for WWII, we STILL wouldn't have atomic power because it required a conflict like WWII to create the incentive for a country to invest so many resources into a single project. The same is true for the Apollo Project (although the incentive was slightly different - the space race in that case).

In game terms, this could be implemented by delaying the effects that the other nations get from the wonder. I strongly feel that NOT giving it to them at all, however, is seriously out of sync with reality/history.